New map of R1b-DF27 (SRY2627 + M153)

[Maciamo]

I had been postponing the creation of this map until more data was available, especially for France and Central Europe. But as this could take years, I've decided to make the map anyway and update it later once new studies will be published. So please take it with a pinch of salt.

The map is mostly based on the data for SRY2627 (M167) and M153. I expect the overall frequency to be higher once other subclades will be brought to light.

 

[Mikewww]

I had been postponing the creation of this map until more data was available, especially for France and Central Europe. But as this could take years, I've decided to make the map anyway and update it later once new studies will be published. So please take it with a pinch of salt.

The map is mostly based on the data for SRY2627 (M167) and M153. I expect the overall frequency to be higher once other subclades will be brought to light.

Thank you, Maciamo. One of my lineages is DF27+ Z220+, which will probably be the biggest new elements of DF27. It's the Ken Nordtvedt's old R1b-North-South Cluster and is quite heavy in Iberia and France but found its way to Scandinavia and Germany too.

 

[Maciamo]

Thank you, Maciamo. One of my lineages is DF27+ Z220+, which will probably be the biggest new elements of DF27. It's the Ken Nordtvedt's old R1b-North-South Cluster and is quite heavy in Iberia and France but found its way to Scandinavia and Germany too.

Thanks. Do you know how to recognise this R1b-North-South cluster using STR's ? Is that the one with DYS437=14, DYS448=18, and H4=10 ?

 

[Dubhthach]

Thanks. Do you know how to recognise this R1b-North-South cluster using STR's ? Is that the one with DYS437=14, DYS448=18, and H4=10 ?

DYS437=14, DYS448=18, GATAH4=10, DYS392=13, DYS531=11, DYS388=12, DYS426=12, and DYS454=11

Obviously your map at the moment shows two of the know clades of Z196. There however DF27+, Z196- men out there. For example men with native Irish surnames who are DF27+ often show up as Z196-


There's good probability that the P312* (L21-, U152-) in Iberia/Southern France in the following map are mostly DF27+, obviously as you go further north there would be possibility of DF19 and L238. (Britain, Benelux and Scandinavia)

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/P312_BB_Palmeta_Points_v001.png

 

[Maciamo]

I have looked for the North-South cluster STR's in the data of the Iberian study by Adams et al., as well as in the FTDNA projects for Scandinavia, Ireland, Scotland and the Benelux. I have revised the frequencies accordingly for Iberia and Gascony. However the frequencies of DF27 do not seem to exceed 5% anywhere in northern Europe.

I wonder how Richard Rocca gets the same frequency of DF27 in Cantabria + Asturias, where there is 55% of R1b, and in the Basque country + Catalonia, where R1b exceeds 85% of the population. That would mean that DF27 makes up
a much higher proportion of R1b subclades in Cantabria and Asturias. I don't think that is the case.

 

[Mikewww]

I have looked for the North-South cluster STR's in the data of the Iberian study by Adams et al., as well as in the FTDNA projects for Scandinavia, Ireland, Scotland and the Benelux. I have revised the frequencies accordingly for Iberia and Gascony. However the frequencies of DF27 do not seem to exceed 5% anywhere in northern Europe.

I wonder how Richard Rocca gets the same frequency of DF27 in Cantabria + Asturias, where there is 55% of R1b, and in the Basque country + Catalonia, where R1b exceeds 85% of the population. That would mean that DF27 makes up a much higher proportion of R1b subclades in Cantabria and Asturias. I don't think that is the case.

I don't know how Richard calculated these frequencies. It's probably over on the WFN forum about a year ago. I know his base was the Busby and Myres data sets and I think he used Adams and one other study for Iberia in addition.

In terms of the P312 project, we are getting that over 80% of the P312+ U152- L21- people are coming in at DF27. The old project administrator had a deal where people like that would test DF27 and and he'd pay for another test if they came out DF27- so he was putting his money where his mouth was.

In Iberia the rate is higher than 80% but that's probably picking up more SRY2627 people which are DF27+ by default.

However, keep in mind. That 80% is not 80% of P312 but 80% of P312+ that is confirmed L21- U152- which takes a bunch of people out in some places, like the Isles or parts of Italy and France.

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

I had been postponing the creation of this map until more data was available, especially for France and Central Europe. But as this could take years, I've decided to make the map anyway and update it later once new studies will be published. So please take it with a pinch of salt.

The map is mostly based on the data for SRY2627 (M167) and M153. I expect the overall frequency to be higher once other subclades will be brought to light.

Thanks for posting this Maciamo. This is the first time I've seen a map like this that I can remember. It really puts DF27 into perspective.

Let add a little to it for whatever it is worth. Obviously I belong to the 2627 clade as shown on my profile and my male line originates in the southern part of the island of Britain.
I've been working deep ancestry for a number of years and I would 'guess' that a majority of the British and Irish male lines who are in the 2627 project have a recent origin in France within the last thousand years.
Deep ancestry is nearly impossible to prove, and most of my research on lines other than mine have been wags, but most of the names, even those with Anglo-Saxon or Gaelic surnames, appear to have a likely or possible origin with Doomsday male settlers.

You'll also note from the Didier's 2627 sub-clades that the TMRCAs of every group seems to fall in a range that can usually be best explained by doomsday in the B.I.'s, although I would also expect a smaller previous input during the Roman era in Southern Britain. Most of the little clades have a mix of French and English surnames.

Currently, you show most of British Islands in the 1-5% range total for DF27. I wonder if it were possible to peel away every root Norman ancestral family how much SRY2627 would be left in the British Islands if at all?

Also, are you aware of any other M153 or 2627 outside of Western Europe? Say North Africa, Middle East?

One last comment, the presence of DF27 in Central Europe is interesting. Does anyone know what its diversity is there?

 

[Mikewww]

... Also, are you aware of any other M153 or 2627 outside of Western Europe? Say North Africa, Middle East?

The intriguing one is on the Old Norway Project map I posted at:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...in-Scandinavia?p=413540&viewfull=1#post413540

For the R1b projected "smaller" pie you will see in the "NI" (Norway Inland) region there is a purple slice. The purple in the R1b pies is for M153 so there are a couple of M153+ people there. As you know, M153+ is purportedly "the Basque Marker". It is a subset of the North-South cluster which has Z220+ upstream.

Were these historic period Basque fisherman working their ways in the North Sea?
Or was this some clue, since M153 is not that old, of some late prehistoric or early classical period expansion of the North-South Cluster both north and south, with the bulk of the M153 going into Aquitania and eventually the Pyrenees?

I don't know. I'd love to get the haplotypes of those M153 people from Norway.

...One last comment, the presence of DF27 in Central Europe is interesting. Does anyone know what its diversity is there?

I keep a spreadsheet of all DF27 67 STR haplotypes or suspected ones that I can find since I'm a DF27 project admin.
I use to get that France and Germany had as high or higher variance for long haplotypes as Iberia, but it as pretty much evened out so I can't really say. There are many kinds of DF27 in Iberia so they may have gotten there relatively early if they didn't start out there.

 

[LeBrok]

I had been postponing the creation of this map until more data was available, especially for France and Central Europe. But as this could take years, I've decided to make the map anyway and update it later once new studies will be published. So please take it with a pinch of salt.

The map is mostly based on the data for SRY2627 (M167) and M153. I expect the overall frequency to be higher once other subclades will be brought to light.

Could this be a marker of first R1b in Europe of non-IE kind, the pre IE?

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

The intriguing one is on the Old Norway Project map I posted at:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...in-Scandinavia?p=413540&viewfull=1#post413540

For the R1b projected "smaller" pie you will see in the "NI" (Norway Inland) region there is a purple slice. The purple in the R1b pies is for M153 so there are a couple of M153+ people there. As you know, M153+ is purportedly "the Basque Marker". It is a subset of the North-South cluster which has Z220+ upstream.

Were these historic period Basque fisherman working their ways in the North Sea?
Or was this some clue, since M153 is not that old, of some late prehistoric or early classical period expansion of the North-South Cluster both north and south, with the bulk of the M153 going into Aquitania and eventually the Pyrenees?

I don't know. I'd love to get the haplotypes of those M153 people from Norway.



I keep a spreadsheet of all DF27 67 STR haplotypes or suspected ones that I can find since I'm a DF27 project admin.
I use to get that France and Germany had as high or higher variance for long haplotypes as Iberia, but it as pretty much evened out so I can't really say. There are many kinds of DF27 in Iberia so they may have gotten there relatively early if they didn't start out there.

I see your point and it is interesting. For the most part, I would think the British, North Sea, Canary or Med archipelagos would generally tend to better capture relict populations that give us a snapshot of past population movements, especially those that are very isolated such as is the case in the North Sea. It is generally true throughout any division of biology to either find relict populations on islands or populations that diverged in isolation. I would be interesting to know more about the islanders in the North Sea. I doubt too many outsiders were jealous of poor quality soils that were frozen half the year. To be honest, the many thinly supported 'Basque theorizing' out there doesn't go too far with me. The Basque people probably have a heavy Indo-European male bias, no different from Cherokees, African Americans or other groups. You would think if the Basque language was spoken by any division of R1b people at an early time that you would find some similar language in the Canaries or on St. Hilda's or an island or in a desert. Going back to the North Sea, how do you think the colonization of Iceland and Greenland come into play? R1b is present there and that would eliminate any gene flow questions for the last thousand years??

 

[Maciamo]

Could this be a marker of first R1b in Europe of non-IE kind, the pre IE?

Very doubtful since it is a subclade of P312/S116. I think it represents the first migration of R1b Indo-Europeans from central Europe to south-west Europe, circa 2300 BCE. As I have explained in How did the Basques become R1b ?, this R1b migration was probably carried by a group of Indo-European men, adventurers mounted on horses and equipped with bronze weapons in search of easy conquest and loot in Neolithic western Europe. It took over 500 years for the Bronze Age to spread around all Iberia (from 1800 to 1300 BCE) because no proper Bronze Age culture emerged before the wider Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-700 BCE). Before that there were only isolated settlements where bronze weapons have been found, but no evidence of bronze producing societies making use of bronze technologies for everyday life. I believe that this is a sign that for this half millennium Iberia was ruled by warlords of Indo-European (R1b) origin, who had lost their Indo-European language and heritage after a few generations. It is likely that Indo-European languages did not really take hold in Iberia (in the north-west at least) during the Hallstatt expansion around 600 BCE. That doesn't mean that R1b wasn't present in Iberia before that of course. R1b had just become acculturated because of the lack of organised migration of whole tribes with women and children.

 

[Maciamo]

The intriguing one is on the Old Norway Project map I posted at:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...in-Scandinavia?p=413540&viewfull=1#post413540

For the R1b projected "smaller" pie you will see in the "NI" (Norway Inland) region there is a purple slice. The purple in the R1b pies is for M153 so there are a couple of M153+ people there. As you know, M153+ is purportedly "the Basque Marker". It is a subset of the North-South cluster which has Z220+ upstream.

Were these historic period Basque fisherman working their ways in the North Sea?
Or was this some clue, since M153 is not that old, of some late prehistoric or early classical period expansion of the North-South Cluster both north and south, with the bulk of the M153 going into Aquitania and eventually the Pyrenees?

I don't know. I'd love to get the haplotypes of those M153 people from Norway.

M153 (and other DF27 subclades) could have spread from Iberia to France, the British Isles and western Scandinavia during the Atlantic Bronze Age, when there were clearly well-established trade networks over all Atlantic Europe. That would explain why DF27 is only found at low frequencies outside Iberia and Gascony.

The DF27 around the Alps might be leftover of the original group that 'colonised' Iberia.

 

[LeBrok]

Very doubtful since it is a subclade of P312/S116. I think it represents the first migration of R1b Indo-Europeans from central Europe to south-west Europe, circa 2300 BCE. As I have explained in How did the Basques become R1b ?, this R1b migration was probably carried by a group of Indo-European men, adventurers mounted on horses and equipped with bronze weapons in search of easy conquest and loot in Neolithic western Europe. It took over 500 years for the Bronze Age to spread around all Iberia (from 1800 to 1300 BCE) because no proper Bronze Age culture emerged before the wider Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-700 BCE). Before that there were only isolated settlements where bronze weapons have been found, but no evidence of bronze producing societies making use of bronze technologies for everyday life. I believe that this is a sign that for this half millennium Iberia was ruled by warlords of Indo-European (R1b) origin, who had lost their Indo-European language and heritage after a few generations. It is likely that Indo-European languages did not really take hold in Iberia (in the north-west at least) during the Hallstatt expansion around 600 BCE. That doesn't mean that R1b wasn't present in Iberia before that of course. R1b had just become acculturated because of the lack of organised migration of whole tribes with women and children.

It makes sense, elegant explanation.
Do we have corresponding places in West Asia with DF27, that could help finding starting point of first R1b going to Europe? It would be sweet if there were.

 

[Maciamo]

I makes sense, elegant explanation.
Do we have corresponding places in West Asia with DF27, that could help finding starting point of first R1b going to Europe? It would be sweet if there were.

Why in West Asia ? DF27 is a branch of P312 that probably started expanding from Central Europe (Unetice culture).

 

[Mikewww]

... I wonder how Richard Rocca gets the same frequency of DF27 in Cantabria + Asturias, where there is 55% of R1b, and in the Basque country + Catalonia, where R1b exceeds 85% of the population. That would mean that DF27 makes up a much higher proportion of R1b subclades in Cantabria and Asturias. I don't think that is the case.

Richard added the Martínez-Cruz (2012) data to Myres and busby to make the map.

He said, "It was for P312(xU152,L21) so in the case of Cantabria, all samples were P312(xU152,L21) so 55% "predicted" DF27 seems about right."

 

[Mikewww]

... For the R1b projected "smaller" pie you will see in the "NI" (Norway Inland) region there is a purple slice. The purple in the R1b pies is for M153 so there are a couple of M153+ people there. As you know, M153+ is purportedly "the Basque Marker". It is a subset of the North-South cluster which has Z220+ upstream.

Were these historic period Basque fisherman working their ways in the North Sea?
Or was this some clue, since M153 is not that old, of some late prehistoric or early classical period expansion of the North-South Cluster both north and south, with the bulk of the M153 going into Aquitania and eventually the Pyrenees?

I don't know. I'd love to get the haplotypes of those M153 people from Norway.

Very doubtful since it is a subclade of P312/S116. I think it represents the first migration of R1b Indo-Europeans from central Europe to south-west Europe, circa 2300 BCE. As I have explained in How did the Basques become R1b ?, this R1b migration was probably carried by a group of Indo-European men, adventurers mounted on horses and equipped with bronze weapons in search of easy conquest and loot in Neolithic western Europe. It took over 500 years for the Bronze Age to spread around all Iberia (from 1800 to 1300 BCE) because no proper Bronze Age culture emerged before the wider Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-700 BCE). Before that there were only isolated settlements where bronze weapons have been found, but no evidence of bronze producing societies making use of bronze technologies for everyday life. I believe that this is a sign that for this half millennium Iberia was ruled by warlords of Indo-European (R1b) origin, who had lost their Indo-European language and heritage after a few generations. It is likely that Indo-European languages did not really take hold in Iberia (in the north-west at least) during the Hallstatt expansion around 600 BCE. That doesn't mean that R1b wasn't present in Iberia before that of course. R1b had just become acculturated because of the lack of organised migration of whole tribes with women and children.

I'm not sure we are disagreement here but I do want to clarify something about M153. It is called the "Basque marker" but that doesn't mean it is the majority subclade in Basque people, just that it is a unique or diagnostic marker for identifying Basque populations. I don't like to give genes ethnic names so I would not use the term "Basque marker" but it is true that it is pretty much only found in known Basque populations. The Scandinavian M153 samples are new news, though. (I think they need verification, BTW).

The whole DF27, Z196, Z220 lineage down to M153 might be very instructive. Keep in mind that, apparently from Z220+ on down is the North-South cluster. While Z196 is a very, very broad multi-STR signature clade covering L176.2 as well as Z220.

I have the DF27 project people loaded in a spreadsheet and can easily calculate Sum of the Variance and Maximum GD to the modal for 67 STR (only) haplotypes. The below is the lineage down to M153.

R1b-DF27
Sum of Var: 21.77
Max GD to modal: 29

R1b-Z196>Z196
Sum of Var: 21.41
Max GD to modal: 29

R1b-Z196>Z196>Z209>Z220
Sum of Var: 18.71
Max GD to modal: 26

R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>Z209>Z220>Z216
Sum of Var: 13.85
Max GD to modal: 18

R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>Z209>Z220>Z216>Z278>Z214
Sum of Var: 12.31
Max GD to modal: 13

R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>Z209>Z220>Z216>Z278>Z214>M153
Sum of Var: 8.7
Max GD to modal: 11

TMRCAs and mutation rate discussions open their own can of worms so I just showed the variance in the data itself. At least relative to DF27, see how young M153 must really be? I don't think M153 was around in the Atlantic Bronze Age timeframe. This is what would be so exciting if any M153+ in Scandinavia was NOT some historic time period/global travel kind of thing.

It could potentially pin down the expansion of the North-South Cluster to some relatively late prehistoric or classical timeframe since M153 apparently was around to go both north and south.

 

[LeBrok]

Why in West Asia ? DF27 is a branch of P312 that probably started expanding from Central Europe (Unetice culture).

I was hoping that by its age it started when R1b was all in Asia. Actually at the time of migration. When it is found in West Asia in one region only it would be easy to link and find the starting point of first R1b who moved to Europe.
I guess I wish for too much and too easy.

 

[fdelangre]

Hello, I am SRY2627. I'm French, and I'm oldest known ancestor in direct male lineage was born in 1580 near Avallon (Yonne, Burgundy, North-Eastern France). My family name "delangre" takes its orgin in the french city of Langres (Haute-Marne, Chapagne, North-eastrn france) in the middle age (ca 13th century)

I don't think that SRY2627 is basque : it could have appear firstly in western France, and then moving north to the british isles, to the south along the french atantic coast (to reach the south-western France, the basque country and Northern Spain). Ad probably small backward moves to the north-east (easten France, Benelux, Germany)

 

[martiko]

then it is not a card of DF27,
but it is a card of vascon influence M167 / M153 and it is a very interesting card of their expansion.

 

[martiko]

could they have a card as whole DF27? and not only M153 / 167


R1b1a2a1a2a DF27/S250
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1 S227/Z195, S355/Z196
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a S230/Z209, S356/Z220
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a1 Z216, S181/Z278
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a1a S348/Z214
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a1a1 M153
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b L176.2/S179.2
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b1 Z262
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b1a M167/SRY2627
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b2 L165/S68
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b3 CTS4188
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1c DF17/S455
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a2 L617
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a3 L881


I do not insist because I see that it would be colossal job ! Help !!