New map of mtDNA haplogroup HV

Interesting map, i have the haplogroup HV1a1 and i don't know it was either brought by Neolithic farmers or was already present during paleolithicum in Europe. Do you know anything about the subclade Maciamo?
 
Dienekes once discussed an abstract which stated that autosomal analysis of an Iron Age Bulgarian (whom he referred to as a Thracian) showed that he was very "Oetzi" or Sardinian like...here is the Dienekes thread:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/ashg-2012-abstracts-are-online.html

This is where the abstract can be found:
http://www.ashg.org/2012meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f120123058.htm

And this is the intriguing quote:
"Strikingly, an analysis including novel ancient DNA data from an early Iron Age individual from Bulgaria also shows the strongest affinity of this individual with modern-day Sardinians. Our results show that the Tyrolean Iceman was not a recent migrant from Sardinia, but rather that among contemporary Europeans, Sardinians represent the population most closely related to populations present in the Southern Alpine region around 5000 years ago. The genetic affinity of ancient DNA samples from distant parts of Europe with Sardinians also suggests that this genetic signature was much more widespread across Europe during the Bronze Age."

Does anyone know if the paper has appeared anywhere? That doesn't sound like someone from the Steppes to me, unless the people from the Steppes are pretty different from many conceptions of them. Or is it possible that individual pockets of older inhabitants survived?
 
Ed. Sorry, double post.

Another thought with regard to these results for the Iron Age Bulgarian... if indeed we ever get to see it in a paper...cultural influences don't always have to indicate migration and admixture.
 
Nobody1 said:
This study about Cro-Magnon mtDNA (Paglicci-25 & Paglicci-12) from South Italy ~23-24000 years ago;

Caramelli et al 2003
http://www.pnas.org/content/100/11/6593.full#aff-1

Paglicci-25 has the following motifs: +7,025 AluI, 00073A, 11719G, and 12308A. Therefore, this sequence belongs to either haplogroups HV or pre-HV, two haplogroups rare in general but with a comparatively high frequencies among today's Near-Easterners (35). Paglicci-12 shows the motifs 00073G, 10873C, 10238T, and AACC between nucleotide positions 10397 and 10400, which allows the classification of this sequence into the macrohaplogroupN,containing haplogroups W, X, I, N1a, N1b, N1c, and N*. Following the definition given in ref. 36, the presence of a single mutation in 16,223 within HRVI suggests a classification of Paglicci-12 into the haplogroup N*, which is observed today in several samples from the Near East and, at lower frequencies, in the Caucasus (35).

If Paglicci-25 (Cro-Magnon) is mtDNA HV than forget about Magna Graecia and the Greeks; Cro-Magnons at least 22,000 years earlier;
Click to expand...

It could be all three? In other words, depending on the specific clade, 22,000 years old, Neolithic or Magna Graecia.
 
Weren't the thracians related to Dacians; a Balkanic people? I would have suspected the Thracian element of being I2a, Bulgars seem like the J2 or E3b group.
 
adamo said:
Weren't the thracians related to Dacians; a Balkanic people? I would have suspected the Thracian element of being I2a, Bulgars seem like the J2 or E3b group.
Click to expand...

yes for Ydna, but we are discussing mtDna for thracians and MtDna for HV
 
HV according to this is only really present in Iraqi and southeastern Turkish females (10%). Then somehow Bulgaria and Calabria seem affected as well. It must have been two separate Neolithic migrations cause I don't see a Bulgaria/Calabria connection unless it's passing by Albania or Greece.
 
Why so heavy in Calabria but still present in Tuscany? Considering both regions were colonized by different substratums of men; now why so frequent in Calabria but absent in Albania and Greece? IS there a historical movement to suggest this (I would say no beforehand) or is it ancient Neolithic component?
 
adamo said:
Why so heavy in Calabria but still present in Tuscany? Considering both regions were colonized by different substratums of men; now why so frequent in Calabria but absent in Albania and Greece? IS there a historical movement to suggest this (I would say no beforehand) or is it ancient Neolithic component?
Click to expand...

The sample sizes for Calabria and Albania are both small, so it would be wise to wait for more ample data before drawing any conclusion.
 
adamo said:
I would have suspected the Thracian element of being I2a, Bulgars seem like the J2 or E3b group.
Click to expand...
Bulgars are Pelasgian/Thracian (J2 + E3b) mixed with Slavic (I2a + R1a). The HV are the Pelasgian women, that's why you find them in the typical Pelasgian places (Calabria, Tuscany, 5% in Albania according to Bosch), and in large percentages in places where E3b came from such as South-East Anatolia.
 
kamani said:
Bulgars are Pelasgian/Thracian (J2 + E3b) mixed with Slavic (I2a + R1a). The HV are the Pelasgian women, that's why you find them in the typical Pelasgian places (Calabria, Tuscany, 5% in Albania according to Bosch), and in large percentages in places where E3b came from such as South-East Anatolia.
Click to expand...

thracians and bulgars are a pontid race, the thracian with cimmerians ( their closest relatives) came from the north of modern bulgaria. the bulgars came in bulgaria later in the medieval times.

East Mediterranean or Pontid race (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria)
black hair, pale skin and light coloured eyes
 
Nobody1 said:
Yes of course that goes with out saying;
Iron-age Bulgaria = Indo-European Thracians / Thraco-Cimmerian complex
+ all available Historical documentations of the Ancient scholars;

Modern-day Bulgarians are from the Thracians plus medieval Bulgars; Your find and this map clearly illustrate the Thracian heritage and continuity;



Thracians were Indo-Europeans and therefor from the Urheimat like all other Indo-Europeans;
And judging by the Thraco-Cimmerian complex the Thracians came via the Danube from North Black sea to the East Balkans and after the Indo-European Hittite empire collapsed - the Thracians (several tribes) crossed into Anatolia from Europe;

Strabo - Book VII/III
And the Phrygians themselves are Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians, the Medobithynians, the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think, also the Mariandynians. These peoples, to be sure, have all utterly quitted Europe, but the Mysi have remained there.

Kristian Kristiansen - Europe before History (1999)
Classical sources mention between fifty and one hundred Thracian tribes.....Thracian culture was heavily influenced by the Pontic cultural koine around the Black Sea, by Macedonia, and by the neighbouring states on the coast of Asia Minor. This takes us back to the 9th and 8th centuries.....In a survey of Macedonian and Thracian bronzes Jan Bouzek (1973;1974) demonstrated the emergence of a circum-Pontic or Thraco-Cimmerian cultural koine from 800 BC. Here old Urnfield traditions in metalwork mixed with new Cimmerian influences originating in the Caucasian region,
Click to expand...

Are the mysi ...the moesi or maudi or "medes" the settled with the dacians?
 
Sile said:
thracians and bulgars are a pontid race, the thracian with cimmerians ( their closest relatives) came from the north of modern bulgaria. the bulgars came in bulgaria later in the medieval times.

East Mediterranean or Pontid race (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria)
black hair, pale skin and light coloured eyes
Click to expand...

and Bulgar J2+E3b also came from Ukraine ?!
 
kamani said:
and Bulgar J2+E3b also came from Ukraine ?!
Click to expand...
I think that E3b is Southeast European: native Bulgarian, Balkanian, Greek or something like that. Has nothing to do with Ukraine nor Anatolia.

Some J2a and R1a types came from West Asia through the Steppes, while some Euopean types of R1a were brought by the Europeans (Slavic, Germanic etc.).

According to me part of (non-Neolithic) Bulgarian mtDNA haplogroup 'HV' arrived in Bulgaria with Y-DNA haplogroups J2a & West Asian R1a from the Steppes.
 
I'm sure that West Asian mtDNA and West Asian Y-DNA in Bulgaria correlates very smoothly with each other. So there must be a link between mtDNA haplogorup HV and Y-DNA haplogroups J2a, West Asian clades of R1a and even some R1b...
 
Angela said:
Dienekes once discussed an abstract which stated that autosomal analysis of an Iron Age Bulgarian (whom he referred to as a Thracian) showed that he was very "Oetzi" or Sardinian like...here is the Dienekes thread:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/ashg-2012-abstracts-are-online.html

This is where the abstract can be found:
http://www.ashg.org/2012meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f120123058.htm

And this is the intriguing quote:
"Strikingly, an analysis including novel ancient DNA data from an early Iron Age individual from Bulgaria also shows the strongest affinity of this individual with modern-day Sardinians. Our results show that the Tyrolean Iceman was not a recent migrant from Sardinia, but rather that among contemporary Europeans, Sardinians represent the population most closely related to populations present in the Southern Alpine region around 5000 years ago. The genetic affinity of ancient DNA samples from distant parts of Europe with Sardinians also suggests that this genetic signature was much more widespread across Europe during the Bronze Age."

Does anyone know if the paper has appeared anywhere? That doesn't sound like someone from the Steppes to me, unless the people from the Steppes are pretty different from many conceptions of them. Or is it possible that individual pockets of older inhabitants survived?
Click to expand...

I think "Sardinian" has to be read in a wider sense, meaning generic south-european-like. I rather tend to agree here with davidski's comment and also with the reader's comments:
http://polishgenes.blogspot.de/2013/10/ancient-dna-from-prehistoric-bulgaria.html
 
Sile said:
Are the mysi ...the moesi or maudi or "medes" the settled with the dacians?
Click to expand...

Strabo - Book VII/III-V
The Greeks indeed considered the Getæ to be Thracians. They occupied either bank of the Danube, as also did the Mysians, likewise a Thracian people, now called the Moesi.....Next to the territory of the Scordisci, lying along the banks of the Danube, is the country of the Triballi and Mysi, whom we have before mentioned

Homer - Iliad XIII
Now when Jove had thus brought Hector and the Trojans to the ships, he left them to their never-ending toil, and turned his keen eyes away, looking elsewhither towards the horse-breeders of Thrace, the Mysians, fighters at close quarters, the noble Hippemolgi, who live on milk, and the Abians, justest of mankind.

The Mysi (Moesi) were Thracians that lived in Thrace east of the Triballi and Scordisci; and also on both sides of the Danube (Ister) which would mean next to (amongst) the Dacians as well; The Thracian Getae and Thracian Mysi (Moesi) seems were of the same (common) Thracian stock which would make the Getae close to the Moesi (Mysi) of later Roman times;
 
Wait up a second......the Lydians of turkey were once known as Mysians/Moesians....what a minute; the Mysians are similar to Georgian Meshketi/Moscheti, the thracians COULdN'T have been related to Dacians or I2a people's; they were bloody pelasgians as well
 
Were the Moesians and all thracians of Anatolian/Caucasus stock?
 
And nobody you still haven't answered my research in the J2 folder on Sabine origins.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top