K12 New map of Caucasian autosomal admixtures in Europe and the Middle East

[Maciamo]

After the map of Gedrosian admixture I found it would be interesting to compare the distribution of the 'Caucasus' admixture in the same K12b. Although both peak around West Asia and South Asia, the frequency inside Europe is completely different. The Caucasian admixture looks more Neolithic (matching particularly well G2a + J1xP58 + J2) and is high among Slavs, but nearly absent in Northwest Europe as well as among the Basques. In contrast, the Gedrosian is virtually absent in Slavs but is the highest in Northwest Europe among Europeans and appears linked to the diffusion of R1b lineages.

It's also interesting how the Caucasian admixture is so unevenly spread within Spain (unlike any other country).

 

[Angela]

After the map of Gedrosian admixture I found it would be interesting to compare the distribution of the 'Caucasus' admixture in the same K12b. Although both peak around West Asia and South Asia, the frequency inside Europe is completely different. The Caucasian admixture looks more Neolithic (matching particularly well G2a + J1xP58 + J2) and is high among Slavs, but nearly absent in Northwest Europe as well as among the Basques. In contrast, the Gedrosian is virtually absent in Slavs but is the highest in Northwest Europe among Europeans and appears linked to the diffusion of R1b lineages.

It's also interesting how the Caucasian admixture is so unevenly spread within Spain (unlike any other country).

I agree that at least some of the Caucasus is Neolithic, although I think that the Mediterranean component is also very significant, unless it should be found, for example, that Mesolithic samples from the Balkans already contained it. Also, the southwest Asian was present in the earliest Neolithic farmers.

Once again, the analysis of Oetzi and Gok 4, including one based on the K=12b calculator.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04/first-look-at-dna-of-neolithic.html

The most likely explanation for the differing Caucasus numbers for Oetzi and Gok 4 might be that there were various Neolithic migrations, from slightly different areas, and at slightly different times.

I find it interesting that Otzi's numbers for Caucasus and S.W.Asian are so similar to the numbers of current North Italians and Tuscans. It's the other components that have changed in the last five thousand years.

 

[Noman]

Those two shouldn't expect to be related, and mountains are generally a refugium.

The caucasian is probably neolithic farmers and gedrosian migratory people who move around a bit. Note that they are not descended from gedrosians or anything, just have had contact with them, or contact with people who contacted them etc. as happens in a cultural exchange. You can see this in all peoples with their neighbors.

 

[Silesian]

Thanks for posting nice maps.R1b L23x[51] is also found at elevated levels in the region between the two darkened regions of Gedrosia and Caucasus component. Armenian Syunik-Karabakh region and ancient Iranian tribes[Medes] Northwestern Iranian language; Old Azeri, Gilacki, Talysh, and Luri.

 

[Goga]

Of all West Asian/Near Eastern groups Iranic Kurds and Persians have the highest amount of this component. 3000 years ago the Medes Persians & Parthians were very closely related to each other. Even 3000 years later we can see that Kurds (modern descendants of the Medes) and Persians have almost the same amount of this component. Persian and Kurdish populations are still very close to each other. This means that Kurds & Persians didn't changed a lot in the last 3000 years and also that ancient Iranic tribes were for the important part Gedrosian, since this Gedrosian component is very high among all Iranic nations, even in South & Central Asia. Ancient proto-Iranians were West Asian/Gedrosian!

 

[Fire Haired]

Macimao dont u think there is a reason why Italy and Greece have so much more mid eastern than the rest of Europe. every aust dna test i have looked at Italy and Greece will have over 3-4 times as much mid eastern groups as the rest of Europe. The more south u go in Italy the higher it gets. Y DNa J also seems to be most popular in Europe around Italy and Greece. Also southeast Europe around Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania area have high amounts but less than Greece they also have more E V13 and J than the rest of Europe. I think there is defintley a connection with hg E V13 and J1-J2 and amount of mid eastern blood in diff europeans. Alo I think the reason that Italy and Greece have so much more mid eastern blood than the rest of Europe is because of the ancient Greco Roman world not the Neolithic age.

Sradine people are true Neolithic west europeans they are probably close to 100% from the people that spread farming acroos Europe. They probably formed form a mix of European and the mid eastern farmers. I would guess that Sardine people orignalley lived in Italy over 6,000 years ago they have much less mid eastern than Italians that is evidence the high amount of mid eastern blood in Italy came after the Neolithic age. There is a connection with the Roman empire and Y DNA J2 in Europe i think alot of Y DNA J in Europe mainly Italy, Greece, and south east Europe came in the Greco Roman age.

 

[ElHorsto]

In Balkans and Italy the Caucasus admixture it is certainly neolithic because Atlantic_med is very high too. But the very low Atlantic_med in Balts and north-Slavs suggests that their Caucasus admixture is from a different source, maybe satem-speaking indo-europeans.

 

[Fire Haired]

Goga proto Indo Iranian speakers came from Russia. They came out of Yamna culture and migrated acroos central asia eventulley had alot of contact with people from around IRan spread there then also from there spread to were Kurds live today. The gedorsian in Kurds and Iranians is from the pre Indo Iranian speakers. R1b shows a connection with Gedorsian but that does not mean it is unque to R1b just R1b began in that area.

Maciamo i think thee is deifntley good evidence alot of Y DNA J is Neolithic but i defintley think some is Greco Roman. Why from 31 Y DNa samples from west European farmers dating any where from 7,000 to 4,725 years old not one had hg J it deifntley does not connect with how popular J is today u would except at least one. I am wondering what J1 and J2 subclades in Europe have old enough ages to be Neolithic and pretty much only found in Europe or very rare in areas of the mid east Greek and Italian civilizations had contact with.

Do u think that Cardium culture and LBK came from the same source. I think that all or almost all farming in Europe was spread by the same family of farmers who orignalley came from a culture around Greece and Anatolia 9,000ybp. I think G2a3 L30 was their main G2a subclade and G2a was their main haplogroup period.

 

[Fire Haired]

I really doubt the Caucus admixture in Italy and Greece is Neolithic. i made a map of west asian from the globe13 test it is distrubted around Italy Greece and southeast europe almost exactley the same way same with southwest asian. The fact is that Italians, Greeks, and southeast Europeans have more mid eastern than the rest of Europe The farmers that came to Italy came from central Europe why doesnt central Europe have as much and why does southern Italy have more. That makes me think it came through the Mediterranean sea in the Greco Roman age not everything mid eastern in europe is neloithic i get sick of that assumtion.

 

[Angela]

I really doubt the Caucus admixture in Italy and Greece is Neolithic. i made a map of west asian from the globe13 test it is distrubted around Italy Greece and southeast europe almost exactley the same way same with southwest asian. The fact is that Italians, Greeks, and southeast Europeans have more mid eastern than the rest of Europe The farmers that came to Italy came from central Europe why doesnt central Europe have as much and why does southern Italy have more. That makes me think it came through the Mediterranean sea in the Greco Roman age not everything mid eastern in europe is neloithic i get sick of that assumtion.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04/first-look-at-dna-of-neolithic.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04/first-look-at-dna-of-neolithic.html

West Asian and Caucasus are also two different components

 

[Goga]

Goga proto Indo Iranian speakers came from Russia. They came out of Yamna culture and migrated acroos central asia eventulley had alot of contact with people from around IRan spread there then also from there spread to were Kurds live today. The gedorsian in Kurds and Iranians is from the pre Indo Iranian speakers. R1b shows a connection with Gedorsian but that does not mean it is unque to R1b just R1b began in that area.

I don't like to talk about this with you. I'm tired of ignorance among some denials here! You can still believe in stupid fairytales. Lets just agree to disagree, dude! There're no 'European' N1c1, I2a and R1a-Z283 Y-DNA haplogroups in Central Asia! Gedrosian component = R1* + J2a & G2a. This is the same formula of modern-day and ancient Iranic peoples that still speak and spoke Iranic languages. Russians (N1c1, R1a-Z283 & I2a folks) speak a Slavonic language. Slavic nations have nothing to do with Iranic and proto-Iranic nations, since they never spoke Iranic. Iranic R1a is NOT the same as Slavic R1a! The only true Iranians and descendants of the ancient Iranians are moder-day Persians and Kurds (/Medes). Even today among ALL WestAsian peoples, Kurds have the highest amount of Caucasian-Gedrosian component! Together with Caucasian, Gedrosian is the most imporant auDNA component among ALL Iranians, from West (Asia) to East (Cetral Asia)! Ancient Sogdians, Parthians, Bactrians, Persians and Medes were all Caucasian-Gedrosian! We can attest that by looking at the auDNA of modern-day Iranic nations from Kurdistan to Afghanistan!

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

After the map of Gedrosian admixture I found it would be interesting to compare the distribution of the 'Caucasus' admixture in the same K12b. Although both peak around West Asia and South Asia, the frequency inside Europe is completely different. The Caucasian admixture looks more Neolithic (matching particularly well G2a + J1xP58 + J2) and is high among Slavs, but nearly absent in Northwest Europe as well as among the Basques. In contrast, the Gedrosian is virtually absent in Slavs but is the highest in Northwest Europe among Europeans and appears linked to the diffusion of R1b lineages.

It's also interesting how the Caucasian admixture is so unevenly spread within Spain (unlike any other country).

Great Maps, Maciamo!
Do you think possibly these maps could be intrepreted the other way around?

The Gerdosian map, I think, is quite clear as you've said. It corresponds with R1b's movement.
The Caucasian map could be much, much later though. Could the Ottomans and the Goths could have spread K12b?
Excluding some of the other wandering peoples, the Gothic and Vandalic influence is much stronger in Spain and Italy than some think. Perhaps the Eastern Germanics had a more eastern and Crimean maternal mix, which tends to disguise their total presence in Spain and Italy. It probably also better explains the uneven distribution in Gothic Spain.

Edit* Afterthought. I'm ignorant on how these genes are selected in children, but I would imagine a single ancestor in the genealogy of a cross-section of modern people could have spread K12b to many descendants. For example, a single Ottoman soldier who married a local Middle Eastern 400 years ago may now have several million offspring many of which may or may not have K12b. If a bunch of Ottoman soldiers married Middle Eastern women 400 years ago, the gene might be almost universal...?

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

Interesting, the hotspot over R1b Bashkirostan.
Also, interesting; the relative softness over Yamanaya.
Maikop, Kura-Araxes and Northern Mespotamia look fairly hot.
I would be interested to know its distribution in Asian and Africa.

 

[Noman]

Goga proto Indo Iranian speakers came from Russia. They came out of Yamna culture and migrated acroos central asia eventulley had alot of contact with people from around IRan spread there then also from there spread to were Kurds live today. The gedorsian in Kurds and Iranians is from the pre Indo Iranian speakers. R1b shows a connection with Gedorsian but that does not mean it is unque to R1b just R1b began in that area.

Maciamo i think thee is deifntley good evidence alot of Y DNA J is Neolithic but i defintley think some is Greco Roman. Why from 31 Y DNa samples from west European farmers dating any where from 7,000 to 4,725 years old not one had hg J it deifntley does not connect with how popular J is today u would except at least one. I am wondering what J1 and J2 subclades in Europe have old enough ages to be Neolithic and pretty much only found in Europe or very rare in areas of the mid east Greek and Italian civilizations had contact with.

Do u think that Cardium culture and LBK came from the same source. I think that all or almost all farming in Europe was spread by the same family of farmers who orignalley came from a culture around Greece and Anatolia 9,000ybp. I think G2a3 L30 was their main G2a subclade and G2a was their main haplogroup period.

And here we go. The discrepancy here is that the proto indo europeans and the indo european speakers are not the same people as I've been trying to say. Nobody packed up from iran to make a big migration to europe, it just never happened. All the people in that whole area have always been related for all time practically. Also this map shows yamanaya is nothing to do with anything which no one should have thought anyway. Maykop on the other hand obviously took on a lot of that culture.

It's not that the iranians moved west and became european looking. They always looked european and lately they get more and more influence from mongols and arabs, and by way of them influence to east asia and north africa so they look different now. Nobody looked like khomeni in iran even a couple hundred years ago!

 

[Goga]

It's not that the iranians moved west and became european looking. They always looked european and lately they get more and more influence from mongols and arabs, and by way of them influence to east asia and north africa so they look different now. Nobody looked like khomeni in iran even a couple hundred years ago!

Uh, not really. Ancient Greeks described Persians & Medes darker than themselves. The Sumerians described themselves 'black headed'/dark haired. According to me the Sumerians were ancestors of proto-Iranic tribes.

 

[Sile]

After the map of Gedrosian admixture I found it would be interesting to compare the distribution of the 'Caucasus' admixture in the same K12b. Although both peak around West Asia and South Asia, the frequency inside Europe is completely different. The Caucasian admixture looks more Neolithic (matching particularly well G2a + J1xP58 + J2) and is high among Slavs, but nearly absent in Northwest Europe as well as among the Basques. In contrast, the Gedrosian is virtually absent in Slavs but is the highest in Northwest Europe among Europeans and appears linked to the diffusion of R1b lineages.

It's also interesting how the Caucasian admixture is so unevenly spread within Spain (unlike any other country).

I would like to know about the oval area in both maps in the caucasus area. Are they the Kabardin people?

Kabarda or Kabard (Adyghe: Къэбэртайхэр-адыгэ or Qăbărtajxăr-adǝgă; Arabic: القبرطاي أو القبردي‎); are terms referring to a people of the northern Caucasus more commonly known by the plural term Kabardin (or Kebertei as they term themselves). Originally they (with the Besleney (Arabic: البسلني‎) tribe comprised the semi-nomadic eastern branch of what was once the Adyghe tribal fellowship. The Kabardin still consider themselves as a tribe of Adyghe. They speak Kabardian, a North West Caucasian language that represents the easternmost extension of the Circassian language group.

There is an approach among the Adyghe in Circassia from different tribes to use only the Name Circassians (Adyghe) in Census 2010 in Russia; to reflect and revive the unity of the Adyghe Nation (Adyghes in Republic of Adyghea, Kabardians in Kabardino-Balkaria, Cherkess (Adyghe: Шэрджэс or Šărdžăs) in Karachay–Cherkessia, and the Shapsugs in the southern part of Krasnodar Krai, plus small Adyghe groups in Stavropol Krai and North Ossetia. This approach is widely supported in the Caucasus and among the Circassians in Diaspora.<sup>[citation needed]

if they are adyghe , then maykop culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_people</sup>

 

[Maciamo]

I agree that at least some of the Caucasus is Neolithic, although I think that the Mediterranean component is also very significant, unless it should be found, for example, that Mesolithic samples from the Balkans already contained it. Also, the southwest Asian was present in the earliest Neolithic farmers.

The Caucasus admixture is from the K12b admixture, while the Mediterranean is from the K12. They are therefore not mutually exclusive. I don't really like the K12's Mediterranean admixture because it encompass too many different ethnic elements and consequently is not a very coherent marker.

 

[Maciamo]

Great Maps, Maciamo!
Do you think possibly these maps could be intrepreted the other way around?

The Gerdosian map, I think, is quite clear as you've said. It corresponds with R1b's movement.
The Caucasian map could be much, much later though. Could the Ottomans and the Goths could have spread K12b?
Excluding some of the other wandering peoples, the Gothic and Vandalic influence is much stronger in Spain and Italy than some think. Perhaps the Eastern Germanics had a more eastern and Crimean maternal mix, which tends to disguise their total presence in Spain and Italy. It probably also better explains the uneven distribution in Gothic Spain.

Edit* Afterthought. I'm ignorant on how these genes are selected in children, but I would imagine a single ancestor in the genealogy of a cross-section of modern people could have spread K12b to many descendants. For example, a single Ottoman soldier who married a local Middle Eastern 400 years ago may now have several million offspring many of which may or may not have K12b. If a bunch of Ottoman soldiers married Middle Eastern women 400 years ago, the gene might be almost universal...?

The Goths and Vandals had only a very minor impact (under 5%) on the population in the regions where they settled. The Ottomans spread East Asian genes, and their soldiers were from all the Middle East, but they all stayed in the Middle East and in the Balkans. That wouldn't explain how Caucasian DNA got in Europe in the first place. The Caucasian admixture is essentially Neolithic and was probably amplified in Italy and the Balkans through Greco-Anatolian Bronze Age people.

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

The Goths and Vandals had only a very minor impact (under 5%) on the population in the regions where they settled. The Ottomans spread East Asian genes, and their soldiers were from all the Middle East, but they all stayed in the Middle East and in the Balkans. That wouldn't explain how Caucasian DNA got in Europe in the first place. The Caucasian admixture is essentially Neolithic and was probably amplified in Italy and the Balkans through Greco-Anatolian Bronze Age people.

I suppose you are right. I read some of the archeogenetic results of European neolithic samples on Dienekes blog and it seems they had the Caucasian mixture.

I have to admit though, the results of these maps are a bit puzzling. The Transcaucus is puzzling in that it seems to be divided in an East-West fashion genetically between Gedrosian and Caucasian. If you look at your previous map on East Asian admixture, again you see an impact exclusively in the Eastern side of the Caucus.

That makes me question the ethnic mixture of the Maikop Culture in the Western Caucaus. Possibly it was one divided into several castes. The Kurgan builders may have represented a tiny minority of the population in an upper caste. Obviously those buried in the Kurgans were incredibily wealthy.

Also, the lack of overlap in a meaningful way is significant. Given the time and generations to present, I would expect the two maps to be identical if they had their genesis in the same relative region.
If Gedrosian had its genesis in the population of Balochistan, then possibly within a subset, R1b's entry into Europe was much later than previously supposed?

 

[Noman]

Uh, not really. Ancient Greeks described Persians & Medes darker than themselves. The Sumerians described themselves 'black headed'/dark haired. According to me the Sumerians were ancestors of proto-Iranic tribes.

Yeah, I know all that but.... for the ancient greeks, I can't find any reason to think were the least bit dark. They used to call just about everyone darker than them. For that and a million other reasons I think it's the opposite. Black-headed is telling because it implies the people around them didn't have black hair.