Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

Now for the E-V13. At that stage I think they belonged to a group from NW Ukraine/Moldova that lived between the steppes and the Northern Carpathians in the early Chalcolithic and early acquired and specialized in high-altitude cattle breeding, which was a special skill - perhaps through contacts with medium strict, perhaps for another reason, and they may have acquired some other specialized skill that helped them play a leading role in the Chalcolithic revolution in the northern Balkans; we will probably never see them in an urban environment or within their own remarkable material culture( Paleo: that means not in southern Balkan until IA), but they participated in the Chalcolithic revolution in the company of some essentially Mesolithic groups of European hunter-gatherers who stood at the forefront of the Chalcolithic societies of the Balkans and E-c13 are part of their company and have some early entry into the Balkans from the northeast during the Late Chalcolithic, preceding the Indo-European migration. It is possible that you are right and that their second entry into the Balkans was in an Indo-European context, in the Early Iron Age, again from the north, in the context of replacing Thracian elites with Dacian ones. Now, how they ended up in the N Carpathian/Ukrainian Steppe area, in the company of various Mesolithic European hunting tribes, since they are clearly Natufian descendants (?) is beyond me, but they have an old presence in the zep. Ukraine/Dniester/Carpathians and quite obviously, unlike Neolithic farmers, had no problem integrating into the emerging Indo-European communities.

This means the main expansion, the one which lasted, was with Channelled Ware in the EIA. But E-V13 appeared before, presumably with earliest GAC and Ustovo-Gorodsk/Cernavoda intrusions. This suggests, pretty strongly, they were centered in a subgroup of Tripolye-Cucuteni and marched with Northern intruders, like GAC and Western steppe warbands.

Associating them with either a subgroup of TCC, or a pastoralist people related to Bodrogkeresztur-Tiszapolgar, Petresti is the obvious solution to the problem. Just like GAC, they were already closer, in lifestyle and customs, to the PIE than the settled farmers of TCC and the other Copper Age populations. So they could weather that storm and made alliances with the newcomers.

This means we got splinters in the Balkans, but that was, like I always stressed, not the main and core population, but just splinters which bled into the Balkans, which moved South like transhumant Vlachs did, or with other companies. But if they would have stayed in company, what is the sole option in the South Eastern Balkans to have survived, then E-V13 would have been demographically much smaller, weaker and correlate with other haplogroups. Both is not the case, which means the Carpathian homeland is the right one, as this commenter from Bulgaria already claims himself.

The big replacement in the Balkans came in the EIA, which means 100 % its Gáva-related Channelled Ware. And that's clear if looking at the background of the South Thracian samples: They are from the post-Psenichevo context for god's sake! That's in many respects a carbon copy of earlier Channelled Ware groups from the Lower Danube, like Babadag I, similar to Lapus, Belegis II-Gáva and Vartop too. That's their affiliation, not with the older local elements in the region.
 
I agree, the most important take way of what the Bugarian said was this:
they participated in the Chalcolithic revolution in the company of some essentially Mesolithic groups of European hunter-gatherers who stood at the forefront of the Chalcolithic societies of the Balkans and E-c13 are part of their company

The E-V13 samples they found are here and there among a much more numerous I2 population, they are not their own block. And that is not a package for a massive LBA-EIA expansion.
 
I agree, the most important take way of what the Bugarian said was this:


The E-V13 samples they found are here and there among a much more numerous I2 population, they are not their own block. And that is not a package for a massive LBA-EIA expansion.
Absolutely. E-V13 didn't emerge from a hotch-potch of lineages, but from an isolated, uniquely E-V13 population. There are clearly E-V13 lineages which expanded side by side, which date back to the EBA! This means they must have lived together, to the exclusion of other haplogroups, for thousands of years.
There is practically no single non-E-V13 lineage which is completely in sync with E-V13 and experienced a similar growth pattern, with the exact same timings.
Note that e.g. a lot of E-V13, not just Z5018 and Z5017, but really a lot, experienced sudden growth around 1.600 BC and 1.200 BC, before splitting. If there would have been any other haplogroups among the E-V13 population, why did those all fail? Its no parsimonious, not even remotely logical explanation to come up with for that pattern. Hundreds of E-V13 lineages experienced the same growth pattern, simultaneously, but there is no single other.

This can only mean, this is the only logical conclusion, that the E-V13 population isolated itself from other people and grew in their own, well established and defended homeland for thousands of years.

There is nothing in Bulgaria, archaeologically and geographically, which would allow that to have happened, going by all the data we already have.
 
I find the quote from Hawk intriguing, I do not see where the poster wrote about R-Z2103 being chased to the caves of Rhodopes during LBA-EIA transition, but I am relying on google translation and cannot read the thread freely.

I had to search, and he must be referring to these two quotes. R-Z2103 is not mentioned. But what he reveals makes it clear, E-V13 LBA-EIA explosion could not have happened out of Bulgaria. It's a dead-end 100%.

"The Thracians," i.e. the Early and Middle Bronze Age populations are a fairly Nordic group (most, not all). Something like 50-90% yamna. There are various specimens from the Middle(Bronze) Ages that group with present-day Finns. I think there are also some corded pottery tribes. More than one. I.e. presumably there are several migrations from different cultures here - the first pre-Yamnian, the second classical Yamna, the third I think from two different groups of corded pottery. Each of the waves most likely spoke its own version of the Indo-European languages. At the height of the Bronze Age, in my opinion, there is another migration - from the so-called the Babino culture, which is the successor of the catacomb culture from Ukraine,; this is already in historical times, and it is possible that the catacomb culture (and the collapse and pressure of the proto-Iranians) led to the creation of the historical Greeks, Thracians and Armenians. I think that somewhere there we should also look for the Homeric Thracians, a sister group of the Mycenaean Greeks. Those from the Early Iron Age. is Svilengrad, Kap Andreevo, are very different, Yamna about 20%, large Anatolian component, Mesopotamian component. There is a discontinuity in the haplogroups as well, complete, and the appearance of a strange Baltic signal. In the Bronze Age, the groups were very heterogeneous, belonging to different migrations from the north in time and origin, mixed with a certain Balkan, Anatolian and Caucasian component, which was more or less local. But the steppe (pit and battle ax type) predominates among the brozn samples. In the Late Bronze Age these people "disappear". There is a pause. Perhaps part of the great crisis at the end of the Bronze Age, which swept many groups in Europe, the Near East and the Mediterranean, without the reasons being clear. it is impossible to say to what extent the populations have changed, too few samples, from a very diversified, probably, population. The "new" Thracians, of the Iron Age, however, resemble the Mycenaeans of the Bronze Age - but not in terms of haplogroups. Which of the above are the "true" Thracians? I have no idea. Tribes were like dogs and cats. I don't see how it is possible for them to have spoken the same language, they were never in the same community, to unify their language, for example, or to have some language changes that would lead to a common "Thracian" language. Surely, what we know - that there were linguistically distinct Thracian, Paeonian, Illyrian and Macedonian groups, as well as "Pelasgians" is a small section of the true linguistic diversity of the Balkans at that time, which will remain hidden from view. The reason for this diversity is in the above migrations. Childe believes that there was some common Greek body that included pre-Mycenaean Greeks, (the authors of Linear B), Mycenaeans (participants in the Trojan War), "Ionians" (which he considers a separate migration from Mycenaeans and pre-Mycenaeans), and Dorians. The diversity of Greek groups gives him reason to claim that the Balkans are saturated with a large Greek massif (all waves are Greek from the upper, occupied the Balkans from the middle to the south. The question is, where is the middle - on the ridge of an old mountain? on the Rhodopes? more to the south? But perhaps this Greek massif also included the Thracians, i.e. the Homeric people of status and with new masters. Otherwise, they were read by the Samothracians in the 90s, and only the Bulgarians did not understand that the Thracians from the Rhodopes spoke a dialect of the Greek language , Childi, etc. were right. But - only for the "Thracians", perhaps.


The point is that during the catastrophe at the end of the Bronze Age, Bulgaria was also depopulated. I.e. what happened also affected the tribes in the Bulgarian lands in a bad way. From the Late Bronze Age there are no settlements, no mounds, no kurgans, no samples. Apart from various caves in the Rhodopes, where these powerful, warlike tribes of the Bulgarian bronze, heirs of the pit and battle axe, have exposed themselves and found their end. Finally, in caves and holes, chased by someone like rabbits. We managed to find 3-4 samples with 300 dawns. A plague may have struck them, or alternatively, the Thracians with the Romphei, who appeared from across the Danube, may have led an iron revolution.. So those Thracians in Anatolia on the map were rather fleeing from something and moved to Anatolia.. .In Hellas - we know, dark ages. And they suffered there. By whom, how - it is not entirely certain.



 
Based on those two quotes, which I did not read before, the high EEF profile being derived from Bulgaria can be ruled out, it's impossible. That means Transylvania had to have been high EEF in BA. I am now more confident that the MBA E-V13s population will plot in the red circle I posted earlier or just about there. This has to be the profile of BA Transylvania.
GRpmOKH.png
 
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IMO we will find Iron Age V13 samples in Trebeniste Culture, there is some indications and similarities with Thracians over there just as ancient writers wrote about a certain dynasty Peresadyes or Sesarethi as co-rulers with Enchelei.

Although in Trebeniste Culture the helmets were of so called Illyrian type helmets

odpXbDI.jpeg


the gold decoration outside of Trebeniste Culture was found only in Ancient Thrace, though only 1 sample, indicating that Thracians vastly preferred Chalcidian type of helmets followed by so called Thraco-Phrygian type of helmets. Below is the helmet with gold decoration in Sofia Museum if i am not wrong, found in Ancient Thracian site.


17854805_754567158047715_8154022985743011210_o.jpg


As well as the golden mask from Trebeniste

gallery_1783.jpg


during this time we find similarity with Thracian king Tereus golden mask

The_golden_life-size_mask_of_Teres_I_found_in_his_tomb_in_the_Valley_of_the_Thracian_Kings.png


The people of Trebeniste might have had close contacts with Odrysians, either some remote connection, or some similarity in culture/language.
 
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The date of Trebenishte makes it plausible as the culture begins after the Illyrian hegemony in Macedonia was crushed by the Thraco-Cimmerians. Odds are better though for IA samples from Skopje will have E-V13, in southern arc there were two additional samples that were low quality but seemed similar to I10379, which is the female version of MJ-12 of the west Bessarabs.
 
I find the quote from Hawk intriguing, I do not see where the poster wrote about R-Z2103 being chased to the caves of Rhodopes during LBA-EIA transition, but I am relying on google translation and cannot read the thread freely.

I had to search, and he must be referring to these two quotes. R-Z2103 is not mentioned. But what he reveals makes it clear, E-V13 LBA-EIA explosion could not have happened out of Bulgaria. It's a dead-end 100%.

I don't think he's talking about R-Z2103 in the MBA-LBA, but rather R-Z93 and Noua-Coslogeni. Coslogeni covered much of Eastern Bulgaria and is high steppe, just like he's describing it. But they had no dense population, were typical steppe pastoralists. While I think that E-V13 survived in a similar mode, as highland shepherds, Gáva and related Channelled Ware groups were a different beast altogether. They had a critical mass of people and systematic settlement, with fortifications and strategical positioning.

Concerning Daco-Thracian gold production, some of the earliest high quality gold productions came from Transylvania, again from around the Apuseni mountains. They were expert gold smiths since the Copper Age in that region.
 
I don't think he's talking about R-Z2103 in the MBA-LBA, but rather R-Z93 and Noua-Coslogeni. Coslogeni covered much of Eastern Bulgaria and is high steppe, just like he's describing it. But they had no dense population, were typical steppe pastoralists. While I think that E-V13 survived in a similar mode, as highland shepherds, Gáva and related Channelled Ware groups were a different beast altogether. They had a critical mass of people and systematic settlement, with fortifications and strategical positioning.

Concerning Daco-Thracian gold production, some of the earliest high quality gold productions came from Transylvania, again from around the Apuseni mountains. They were expert gold smiths since the Copper Age in that region.

Well Early Bronze Age Thrace was mostly R1b-Z2103. Now, maybe these were hit by another wave of Indo-European steppe people sometimes during late EBA or during MBA, that i don't know.
 
Well Early Bronze Age Thrace was mostly R1b-Z2103. Now, maybe these were hit by another wave of Indo-European steppe people sometimes during late EBA or during MBA, that i don't know.

That was the Sabatinovka invasion which largely destroyed Wietenberg, Monteoru, parts of Tei and related groups in Bulgaria. Coslogeni, the Bulgarian variant of Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni, covered much of Eastern Bulgaria and surely replaced in the pastures anything which might have still remained from earlier periods for the most part.
Also, any local Yamnaya population would have been heavily mixed by the MBA, but his descriptions fits ideally with Sabatinovka and before that, Multi-Cordoned Ware.
I think those earlier Catacomb groups related to Yamnaya moved deeper South, and were influential for the Greeks and Paeonians.

Basically Bulgaria was a transit country, with the next wave either eliminating or pushing the one before. Like Channelled Ware likely pushed Brnjica elements into Anatolia and South, just like Sabatinovka-Coslogeni pushed Catacomb and earlier Multi-Cordoned Ware groups South too.

So I'm very confident that the high steppe population of Bulgaria was mostly R-Z93, which is perfectly in accordance with what we found, since the only non-E-V13 in Kapitan Andreevo was R-Z93.
 
Reading the abstract of the Carpathian study, they referenced a previous Ukrainian study which I never heard: Genomic Diversity of Ukraine - Taras K Oleksyk and others

The supplemental do not disclose the haplogroups and the raw data is available on GigaScience(first time I'm hearing it). Y-full does have the samples listed. None are listed as E-V13.

Of the male samples, the ones I bolded are from Transcarpathia mostly from the plains near Hungary: 12 male samples. None from Hutsul territory but these are the first samples from far western corner of Ukraine that borders Slovakia-Hungary-Romania.
akA33p7.png
 
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Methodology of the upcoming paper:

How were the research participants selected?


The main criterion is that the person had to be a third-generation Transcarpathian and come from the same region. "We allowed 15 people that their origin could be from different districts, for example, mother from Beregov, father from Khust district. Other people, their origin must be purely within the boundaries of one district, that is, all four grandparents had to be from the same district, and even better - from one village," said the main researcher of the project.
In today's global world, such people are hard to find. But scientists tried to adhere to this criterion and identified the indigenous inhabitants of various villages.


The grant project included all 13 districts of Transcarpathia, plus national minorities - Roma and Vlachs. Gender, age do not matter. There were only two requirements: volunteers had to be ready to donate blood and be natives.
 
The date of Trebenishte makes it plausible as the culture begins after the Illyrian hegemony in Macedonia was crushed by the Thraco-Cimmerians. Odds are better though for IA samples from Skopje will have E-V13, in southern arc there were two additional samples that were low quality but seemed similar to I10379, which is the female version of MJ-12 of the west Bessarabs.

The so called Thraco-Cimmerian horizon is interesting though, i admit i was against the idea that this had to do anything with E-V13 but i change my mind, i think Thraco-Cimmerian is just an abbreviation and they were Northern Thracian_Hallstatt people which pushed down deep in Balkans during EIA-MIA.
 
Some maps: LBA

i284289739541016274._szw1280h1280_.jpg


EIA
661612_fd3cd83152184f4fb51b1d27b1347e8c~mv2.jpg



Metzner-Nebelsick-353.jpg


PeredSkifEng.gif


Why is in some maps Cernoles considered Thracian Hallstatt and in others a separate group?
 
Some maps: LBA

i284289739541016274._szw1280h1280_.jpg


EIA
661612_fd3cd83152184f4fb51b1d27b1347e8c~mv2.jpg



Metzner-Nebelsick-353.jpg


PeredSkifEng.gif


Why is in some maps Cernoles considered Thracian Hallstatt and in others a separate group?

Chernoles was basically a mixed culture with clear Thracian influences especially in the South, but also Lusatian, Iranian and Baltoslavic trends. Hard to pin down and I would basically consider it a mixed culture. If you look at the territory it occupied, you can also see that its hardly one homogeneous block, though we can't be sure.

Stanovo = Suciu de Sus, in case somebody doesn't know.
 
It looks like he got more background information and additional samples though. Because what he clearly states is that the research groups tried, but they didn't found a lot. Now he should know the difference between cremation burials which can't be tested and a lack of finds in general, hopefully.
What he also added, and this is highly important too, is that E-V13 was associated with the GAC/I2/high WHG groups in some way, because it appeared with those people earlier and later too, bringing additional, new Baltic-HG-Iron Gates admixture. This too suggests he got access to other samples, probably earlier ones from the Channelled Ware expansion. Otherwise there is little reason for him stating the Baltic-HG associated admixture.
All this points to a point of origin, especially for the main expansion in the LBA-EIA, from along or North of the Danube.

Here I made a map for the LBA situation, showing how I see the general situation of the Carpatho-Balkan sphere in the LBA, its not meant to be super-exact, but to give a general orientation for what was going on (red = areas which were occupied by Gáva, no sampling yet):

LBA-Carpatho-Balkan-sphere.jpg


There are only two groups which could have had more E-V13 and spread it in the LBA-EIA, which are not necessarily mutually exclusive:
- The Northern Carpathian cremation block (core of Gáva-related Channelled Ware)
- Southern Carpatho-Balkan cremation block (Belegis I, Paracin, Brnjica)

It is clear that Gáva largely ate the Southern block, Encrusted Pottery, Noua-Coslogeni and the "remaining territories" in Thrace up. And its also likely that the Southern block was largely gone, or fled to the South and East (Anatolia, Phrygians?).

But in essence, with the narrow corridor between the cremating Carpathian groups and the Illyrians and the South Eastern tip, which got largely depopulated later, we can define what's left beside the Carpathian cremation block/Gáva-related Channelled Ware. And that's not very much at all.

Obvously, in Southern Romania, some regional groups (Verbicoara-Tei into Fundeni-Govora) are likely closer to Wietenberg and Gáva than others (like Monteoru), but that's it and the Encrusted Pottery wedge along the Danube completely evaporates with the Channelled Ware expansion, just like the Sabatinovka steppe herders, like the commenter said as well. We can see the transition to Fundeni-Govora and Bistreta, then the full blown Channelled Ware group Vartop, which just showed some limited Encrusted Pottery/Garla Mare influences, which shows these groups communicated.
 
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Finally the Swiss paper is out and great news. I wrote about it before:
Riverman
ManofthehourCame across this paper which apparently has data.
"Geographic origin, ancestry, and death circumstances at the Cornaux/Les Sauges Iron Age bridge, Switzerland."
This site has a "Tollense moment", becasue like Tollense and Himera, it might include people otherwise absent from the regular inhumation burials. The background:
Around 100 BC, the Celtic bridge at Cornaux/Les Sauges suddenly collapsed, throwing a convoy of oxen, horses, women and men loaded with their equipment, food and tools into the water. Some escaped, others were swept away by the river’s current, while twenty-one unfortunates were trapped in the tangle of bridge beams and planks. This discovery has given rise to much controversy: some archaeologists, inspired by the debates at the nearby La Tène site, have interpreted Cornaux as a place of sacrifice, where people and goods were thrown into the river as offerings. The archaeological data, however, indicate that it was more a question of a dramatic accident, caused by a violent storm or by a sudden flood of the river.
Its located in Western Switzerland, canton Neuenburg:
Since that canton is now very high in R-U152 and E-V13, it would be great to get the uniparentals of this sort of random caravan people too, whether they are locals or not and what kind of association they will show.

Now the results are out:

Table 11.

Finally a solid confirmation for my hypothesis of Hallstatt-La Tene dispersal of E-V13 to the West. I hypothesized in particular about branches of North Thracian/Dacian E-S2979 reaching the West from the sphere of East Hallstatt-Vekerzug. Well, here it is:
E1b1b1a1b1a10a1a1b~ = downstream of E-S2979
Modern descendants in Russia, which just underscores the Vekerzug-North Thracian affiliation of this branch.

1 E-V13, confirmed.

As I expected, remove the cremation bias and you get E-V13!


The sample had a bit of contamination and was therefore not in the statistic, but he seems to be legitimate nevertheless:

After merging the shotgun and capture sequencing data, the average genome coverage in our samples ranged from 0.1193 to 0.9218 X, while 939,972 to 1,346,808 of targeted SNPs were covered, with a mean coverage spanning from 1.84 X to 10.46 X (Supplementary Table S9). Additionally, most samples (> 81%) show low contamination estimates from modern human DNA (≤ 5% on mtDNA for all samples and ≤ 3% on Y-Chromosome in males), except for two (COR-3 and COR-19; 6% and 24% of contamination on mtDNA level, respectively). After filtering the reads by PMDtools40, the two contaminated samples still retained enough human reads for sex determination (810,776 and 1,004,715, respectively)41,42 but not for further analyses (kinship, PCA, and clustering analysis).

E-V13 being confirmed for him double time, the minor contamination shouldn't affect the result.
 
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Pretty amazing that the Romans could bring E-V13 from Thrace to Switzerland 400 years before they even conquered Thrace. But the sample might a contamination from some Russians that a 1/million chance of having this very specific haplogroup so who knows. Either Putin planted this or the Romans brought it over, otherwise third world country official history needs to be revisited.
 
Pretty amazing that the Romans could bring E-V13 from Thrace to Switzerland 400 years before they even conquered Thrace. But the sample might a contamination from some Russians that a 1/million chance of having this very specific haplogroup so who knows. Either Putin planted this or the Romans brought it over, otherwise third world country official history needs to be revisited.

They tested it two times and run it through the tools. The main issue is that its not included in the further processing and seem to be not carbon dated, but the context is pretty clear anyway. Since we got the Chotin E-V13 from Vekerzug, a couple of centuries earlier, it shouldn't be a surprise.
 
They tested it two times and run it through the tools. The main issue is that its not included in the further processing and seem to be not carbon dated, but the context is pretty clear anyway. Since we got the Chotin E-V13 from Vekerzug, a couple of centuries earlier, it shouldn't be a surprise.

This is small potato, the real data is in the relevant regions. But we are getting E-V13 in IA Ukraine, Gothic Ukraine(far east too), IA Switzerland and there is nothing in Albania until 800-900 AD. Some context for the mediocrities of rrenjet.

It's too bad the data is coming out in the smallest bits possible and not all in one shot.
 

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