Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

I reread the archeological works, Livezile has lots of inhumation remains, impossible to miss E-V13 if it was there, and it clearly had to be there, it's the only viable culture that even from archeological examination it was seen as a local non-IE survivor, the only other non-IE group was in eastern Transylvania and it was Globular Amphora derived and like the predecessor for Monterou and Tei.

Also Livezile was a mountain transhumance culture, a hallmark for many E-V13 future cultures, including modern ones like Albanian and Hutsuls. The expected results are pretty much a given. The unusual delay in disclosing the results though is troubling, it does seem like scientific integrity is being ceded.
 
The process of publishing in a renowned journal is a painful one. The issue with Livezile is that it did use inhumation in the first place and had some influences from around, but overall its part of a wider group of regional cultures, which were all pretty similar and can be, for the most part, derived from Cotofeni.
Nyirseg might be as or even more important, but they strictly cremated and might have other, especilaly Vucedol influences too. In any case, the paper looked not just into Livezile, but the other regional groups with some inhumation burials as well. But I don't know how many males they tested, like its possible some of these groups had no males at all or just single ones or outliers.
I know no details at all, which leaves us completely in the dark how well those groups being covered by this paper.

It is much more clear if looking at the Scythian paper, because even if those were highly mixed, with dozens of samples, its hard to imagine they completely missed the local Dacian lineages, if they write about strong local admixture. Though even here we don't know it for sure, because sometimes the Scythian burials were in one cemeterary with inhumation (presumably with more male Scythian lineages and other foreign lineages) and the locals cremated nearby, still. Like the Sanislau group of Vekerzug did nearly exclusively cremate and those are the core North Dacian people from the region.
 
Livezile could not have been a myriad of haplogroups. If E-V13 did not control the Apuseni mountains(metals and salt) it had no basis to assert itself on anything.
As for papers, it's suspicious that samples that challenge national myths somehow never see the day of light, not even leaks, while everything else just keeps pouring in. Recall the Thracian samples that were suppose to be published around 2019 from the valley of the kings, it was completely scrubbed from existence.
 
Any intel on a tentative release date for the Transylvania Study noted in the abstract at the beginning of this thread? I figured it would be close to publication by now.
 
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Do you think that dacians have left a genetic legacy among modern romanians and moldovans?

Also i really like your work guys keep it up
 
Dahoi said:
Do you think that dacians have left a genetic legacy among modern romanians and moldovans?

Also i really like your work guys keep it up
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Absolutely. A lot of it might be from Romanised Dacians (Daco-Romans) from the Danubian provinces though.
 
And from what i understood from this forum, albanians descend from an ev13(south thracian) population?
 
Dahoi said:
And from what i understood from this forum, albanians descend from an ev13(south thracian) population?
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Rather not. They seem to descend from Dacians as well, either from a Dacian group directly or Daco-Romans, or both. You can see that the Albanian E-V13 branches are not South Thracian at all, but are more likely to stem from Northern (Upper Tisza-Transylvania) or central (Tisza-Danube confluence) group. In general, the overall impact of South Thracians on modern Europeans is comparatively lower to that of the Dacians.
This is by going with the currently available data, which preferred specific branches of E-V13 in South Thracians.

We don't have anything from say Eastern Macedonia yet, but I doubt that they were hiding there, but rather in the mentioned Northern or Central groups of Dacians instead.

In the case of many Romanian branches, we might deal with a forth and back migration too. Like being resettled and pushed to the Danube or South, while coming from North of it, and them moving back again with the Vlachs IMHO.
 
Rafc posted the G25s from Hvar but cut off the last coordinate which is the second E-V13. What is interesting they are similar to south Thracian but with a little bit more Yamnaya, they have elevated Iran N component compared to EIA Thracians, which would mean their IA forefathers had to had less Iran N, which would increase their yamnaya one percentage point further. The point being this is another Thracian or Moesian population not reflected yet in ancient samples.

And as I speculated in the past this population would be even better conductor at modeling Albanian ancestral population than Hungary I18832_EV-13 sample.
ywzre5t.png

5FlWLyh.png


I think the only thing really missing is the north Paeonian component(R-Z2705) that mixes with the main E-V13 population, for now I10379 is likely the only profile to date that best represents this.
 
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Riverman said:
Rather not. They seem to descend from Dacians as well, either from a Dacian group directly or Daco-Romans, or both. You can see that the Albanian E-V13 branches are not South Thracian at all, but are more likely to stem from Northern (Upper Tisza-Transylvania) or central (Tisza-Danube confluence) group. In general, the overall impact of South Thracians on modern Europeans is comparatively lower to that of the Dacians.
This is by going with the currently available data, which preferred specific branches of E-V13 in South Thracians.

We don't have anything from say Eastern Macedonia yet, but I doubt that they were hiding there, but rather in the mentioned Northern or Central groups of Dacians instead.

In the case of many Romanian branches, we might deal with a forth and back migration too. Like being resettled and pushed to the Danube or South, while coming from North of it, and them moving back again with the Vlachs IMHO.
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Thats really intresing but why did dacians or a northern thracian group migrate in the area of modern day albania?
 
Dahoi said:
Thats really intresing but why did dacians or a northern thracian group migrate in the area of modern day albania?
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Well, that's what we need to find out. However, we do know that there were large scale resettlements and movements of people South in the Late Roman and Early Medieval era. The Proto-Albanians themselves had their centre of gravity in a more Northern position (around Kosovo-Southern Serbia) probably too. Therefore from e.g. Dacia ripensis/mediterranea/Moesia and Dardania its not as far anyway. Large chunks of Dacians and Daco-Romans were resettled, moved and fled to those provinces. And those provinces were largely depopulated before those new settlers came in, which multiplied their impact.
 
Riverman said:
Well, that's what we need to find out. However, we do know that there were large scale resettlements and movements of people South in the Late Roman and Early Medieval era. The Proto-Albanians themselves had their centre of gravity in a more Northern position (around Kosovo-Southern Serbia) probably too. Therefore from e.g. Dacia ripensis/mediterranea/Moesia and Dardania its not as far anyway. Large chunks of Dacians and Daco-Romans were resettled, moved and fled to those provinces. And those provinces were largely depopulated before those new settlers came in, which multiplied their impact.
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This could explain the reason why Albanians didnt get completely romanized even tho they were one of the first teritories in the Balkans to be conquered by the romans
 
Looks like there is 1 IA Phrygian site L618 sample, another one from MBA Central Greece.

We might see a pattern where Thracian, Phrygian and Macedonian populations had an abundance of L618/V13.

The Kecicayiri IA site should be Phrygian site per records.

Looks like we also have R1b-Z2103 in Mycenaean Greece, so previous assumptions go down, it makes sense that Z2103 ties up Armenian and Greek in a distant potential family group.

Balkans looks like had a CWC/BB and Yamnaya admixture, not entirely Yamnaya as positioned prior which make sense, Thracian and potentially Albanian do not look so Yamnaya, they have Satem reflections and potentially they might be CWC languages.
 
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The Phrygians might be a mixed population with Thracian influence. Yes, the E-V13 is from the "Phrygian valley" and has Balkan ancestry in the mix.
 
Riverman said:
The Phrygians might be a mixed population with Thracian influence. Yes, the E-V13 is from the "Phrygian valley" and has Balkan ancestry in the mix.
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Ancient greek authors such as Herodot described the phyrigians to be related to the thracians and speak a dialect of thracian
 
Lmao CWC/BB


Doesn’t get any more clearer. Yamnaya brought Paleo Balkan languages, including Greek, directly to the Balkans. Z2103, PF7563 and L283 are the clear signals. Albanians are without any doubt their descendants.

We will see what that L618 is when we get the raw data. But if he is V13, it would be crazy.
 
Since we have now an additional potential E-L618 basal branch in Mycenaean Greeks, I think we can now say with some likelihood that the Proto-Greek population has picked up E-L618 branches as well on their way.

I think we deal with a larger E-L618 population within the context of Tripolye-Cucuteni subgroups, which then were fusing and became assimilated by Usatovo-Gorodsk. Apparently some branches moved South with the Proto-Greeks, whereas the others, in my opinion, moved with Cotofeni West, into Transylvania, with the main branch moving West being E-V13. Of course there are other scenarios, but I think that's the most likely one.

Also interesting, that the Greek E-L618 appears in a site and group together with R-Z2103 and J-L283. This is kind of similar to Maros and Vucedol in composition, what to expect from a Danubian group of the MBA. The site is Kirrha.
This situation makes me wonder whether Maros and Vucedol had some E-L618 or even E-V13 after all. That doesn't change my opinion, however, that Cotofeni is the more likely carrier of E-V13 than Vucedol and the main popuations in the EBA-MBA being in the Upper Tisza region, Transcarpathia and Transylvania. Only in the MBA-LBA they began to move South on a larger scale.

Cotofeni, Maros and Vudecol surely had contacts and that group from Kirrha looks to me Maros-Vucedol inspired, having the same haplogrous we can assume for those. They even noticed on various sites, including Kirrha, traces of migration.

In any case, this is not the first E-L618 which appears in a Mycenean Greek-related context.
 
broder said:
Lmao CWC/BB


Doesn’t get any more clearer. Yamnaya brought Paleo Balkan languages, including Greek, directly to the Balkans. Z2103, PF7563 and L283 are the clear signals. Albanians are without any doubt their descendants.

We will see what that L618 is when we get the raw data. But if he is V13, it would be crazy.
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Did u read the paper? Of course not, you thought just coming casually and putting a 'lmao' will make you sound 'smarter'! They mention that Balkans didn't have just Yamnaya descended populations, but slightly more North to them likely CWC/BB descended as well. The term 'Paleo-Balkan' is not a phylogenetic classification but rather a broad descriptor for pre-Slavic languages in the region.

That sample is likely just L618, not V13+, just like the Crete sample and interesting enough the L618 samples from Ukraine a supposedly mixed Scythian-Greek colonists site.

Even if he was V13+ you cannot force a narrative, oh yeah all Y-DNA found among Albanians have been found in a single site, the pattern is very different for the bulk. E-V13 spreads in Late Bronze Age, most of Z2103 (which was dominant during Early Bronze Age and started vanishing from MBA onwards) in Thrace and Central Balkans vanished from these invasions, likely they were part of invaders that finished off Hittite Empire as well, Mushki are a plausible candidates.
 
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Riverman said:
Since we have now an additional potential E-L618 basal branch in Mycenaean Greeks, I think we can now say with some likelihood that the Proto-Greek population has picked up E-L618 branches as well on their way.

I think we deal with a larger E-L618 population within the context of Tripolye-Cucuteni subgroups, which then were fusing and became assimilated by Usatovo-Gorodsk. Apparently some branches moved South with the Proto-Greeks, whereas the others, in my opinion, moved with Cotofeni West, into Transylvania, with the main branch moving West being E-V13. Of course there are other scenarios, but I think that's the most likely one.

Also interesting, that the Greek E-L618 appears in a site and group together with R-Z2103 and J-L283. This is kind of similar to Maros and Vucedol in composition, what to expect from a Danubian group of the MBA. The site is Kirrha.
This situation makes me wonder whether Maros and Vucedol had some E-L618 or even E-V13 after all. That doesn't change my opinion, however, that Cotofeni is the more likely carrier of E-V13 than Vucedol and the main popuations in the EBA-MBA being in the Upper Tisza region, Transcarpathia and Transylvania. Only in the MBA-LBA they began to move South on a larger scale.

Cotofeni, Maros and Vudecol surely had contacts and that group from Kirrha looks to me Maros-Vucedol inspired, having the same haplogrous we can assume for those. They even noticed on various sites, including Kirrha, traces of migration.

In any case, this is not the first E-L618 which appears in a Mycenean Greek-related context.
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Right now I am a strong proponent that V13 arose among Vinca-Turdas Culture, although I do acknowledge i could be totally wrong. I think its origin resides somewhere in South-Western Carpathians and Haemus Mountains.
 
Hawk said:
Did u read the paper? Of course not, you thought just coming casually and putting a 'lmao' will make you sound 'smarter'! They mention that Balkans didn't have just Yamnaya descended populations, but slightly more North to them likely CWC/BB descended as well. The term 'Paleo-Balkan' is not a phylogenetic classification but rather a broad descriptor for pre-Slavic languages in the region.

That sample is likely just L618, not V13+, just like the Crete sample and interesting enough the L618 samples from Ukraine a supposedly mixed Scythian-Greek colonists site.

Even if he was V13+ you cannot force a narrative, oh yeah all Y-DNA found among Albanians have been found in a single site, the pattern is very different for the bulk. E-V13 spreads in Late Bronze Age, most of Z2103 (which was dominant during Early Bronze Age and started vanishing from MBA onwards) in Thrace and Central Balkans vanished from these invasions, likely they were part of invaders that finished off Hittite Empire as well, Mushki are a plausible candidates.
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No, I haven't read it yet. Will read eventually. My comment was more directed towards you insinuating that Albanian was part of the CWC group instead of Yamnaya. Which is totally nonsense, when one looks at those Y-DNA samples. How you can come to such a conclusion honestly is beyond me.

I wasn't implying that may resolve our V13 question. Obviously if he is though it does suggest that perhaps V13 was more widespread than we are currently agreeing on. Saying all that, he probably is not though. Maybe a dead end like the Zemunica cave, but probably more likely a CTS1975>BY6630 Minoan like the Kydonia sample.

We will see once the raw data is released.
 
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