Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

[PaleoRevenge]

The subject of Himera E-V13s. I was the first to champion the idea they were Dacians. In the past months I considered the idea that these are actually E-V13s from Ukraine, like the sample from the Bilsk fort. Gill Lagoon in genarchivist pointed out that E-V13 mercenaries seem to have been light cavalry archers. That pretty much seals the deal for me.

1) All the merceneries seem to have been recruited from Black Sea ports around Crimea. Caucasian profile on a E-V13, there is even a Slavic like samples from the mercenaries. It is reasonable to assume they were recruited from the same port and that points to Crimea or thereabouts.

The Himera profile in PCA also matches some from the Bilsk fort. I've reconstructed the Babadag PCA cluster. They are actually closer to the Hungarian E-V13(I18832) sample from 200 BC. Since the bulk of the Kartal samples cluster around this particular sample, it is sound to believe this is the main profile of E-V13s north of the Danube.

There is a single sample that clusters same as Ukraine MJ-12 and while this is part of the diversity of profiles in Babadag, the main group hovers around 30-32% Yamnaya(red hexagon).

Ukraine's paper PCA chart.

Two of the Bilsk fort samples plot exactly like the Himera E-V13s. In addition their Yamnaya component is almost identical. One reason why I considered this possibility is the very obvious Slavic drift in the Himera samples. When you add all the clues up, these mercenaries most likely came from the city of Gelonus.

This is the type of model the paper ran(very basic model with farmer,steppe,asian).

Hungary I18832 is practically the same as the Kartal average from the papers graph. See here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...uity-in-transylvania.45010/page-4#post-680721

The Himera's on the other hand are quite close to the papers 40% Yamanya for the Bilsk fort.

However the Himera E-V13 have an obvious Slavic drift.

While we do not have the raw files yet, I am certain the Bilsk samples will also have Slavic drift, based on how they drift on the PCA, but also from the fact that in the papers supplemental material, the Bilsk E-L618 had better p values and fit with models where globular amphora was used for EEF source, while the Kartal samples preferred plain EEF source(early LBK). This shows the Bilsk samples have Corded like admixture.

So I make another claim and let's see how it turns out. Not a single loser from rrenjet has my natural detective instincts/prowess. The Dardani claim is retarded, plain low IQ.

 

[Hawk]

I had a discussion with one of the archaeologists specializing with these Thracian-related cultures.

And so far there is not a clear verdict, Stamped-Ware Culture which is already confirmed to be E-V13 has two older radiocarbon dated sites, 1 in Eastern Rhodopes and another in completely off-location, in Saharna in Middle Dnistr (afaik this is somewhere between Ukraine and Moldova in Podilsk Uplands), while Babadag sites in Lower Danube are usually younger, it's funny because it was expected Babadag sites or Lower Danube in general to be the starting point or the origin of expansion.

Saharna in Middle Dnistr has very similar necropolises to Eastern Rhodope Stamped-Ware, so much probably we are talking about the same group of people, meaning which probably they had as their Y-DNA mainly E-V13. What makes this problematic at least to me personally and probably for them as archaeologists is how can these people skip Lower Danube and firstly go so much more North then appear somewhere far more South at younger date? IMO, the trajectory of spread was probably somewhere in Southern Carpathians in all directions starting LBA with the dawn of iron technology.

It is remarkable how Stamped-Ware during the beginning of Iron Age spread so quickly and dynamically.

As for Gava, Gava is slightly older than Stamped-Ware, but it is acknowledged that it reached Bulgaria and down to Troy, now whether Gava was ancestral to Stamped-Ware, or related or unrelated but co-living with them is as of yet unknown, but there is a clear pattern that Gava and Stamped-Ware expanded on very similar regions and had a lot of things in common. I think, personally Gava/Channeled-Ware and Stamped-Ware was represented by two E-V13 sub-groups. Gava/Channeled-Ware probably was fuller with Z5018/15017, while Stamped-Ware was more of some already appearing older E-V13 clades. We shall see.

One another addition from my side is about the Dardani, all the things about Dardani like the name itself seem to be related to Daco-Mysians, a lot of Dacians had similar variants of names like Diourdanos -> Dardanos, Dardizenus, Dardapara, then the Dardanian and subsequently Taulantian king which might have been a Dardanian newcomer, the name of Monnunius appears among Odrysian Thracians (which is completely missrepresented as occurring among Illyrians which is not true), what adds to this is that his helmet has the Thracian-Phrygian cap.

Also Hecateus wrote that Bardyllis tribe was called Peresadyes (a name recurring among Odrysian Thracians) who infiltrated and co-ruled with Enchelei deep near Ohrid Lake. I think probably this represents Channeled-Ware incursions deep into Illyrian/Brnjica territory, Channeled-Ware incursions like Gava-Medias conquered the territory of people in Kosovo which previously was ruled in West by people more related to Illyrians and Brnjica on their East.

I strongly believe Dardanians were indeed Thraco-Illyrian people, during LBA Daco-Moesian/Thracian-like people invaded the Proto-Illyrian + Brnjica people residing in Kosovo, then during EIA-MIA Autariate/Glasinac-like people invaded them, which after some backup from some Northern Thracian people like Bassarabi-like they got rid of the rule and became independent afterwards until Dardanians were conquered by Rome.

We shall see.

 

[Riverman]

As I pointed out in genarchivist forum recently, the East Rhodopean group is basically a direct relative of Gáva anyway, since they descend from the block of Wietenberg-Verbicoara-Tei into Fundeni-Govora according:

The distribution north of the Balkan Mountains can be traced via the kantharos type from
Plovdiv with parallels near Veliko Tarnovo (see Hänsel 1997: Figure 34, 6), just on the
other side of the Balkan Mountains, and a few other finds near Pleven and Vratsa
(Hänsel 1997: Figure 34, 4-5). Several other variations of the type known from Zimnicea
and Cherkovna, are distributed on the south coast of the lower Danube, central-north
and northeast Bulgaria. The only decorated shape of this ‘horizon’ has parallels with the
Govora group, which is also described as late Verbicoara (see Hänsel 1997: Figure 4, 5).
Elements from Govora, Coslogeni and partially Noua cultures are present at the same
time and in the same contexts south of the Danube and are the closest relatives to the
Zimnicea-Plovdiv shapes. Most of the jug and amphora types can also be seen as related
to Coslogeni (see Hänsel 1997: Figure 1). Therefore, I am more inclined to treat the
Zimnicea-Plovdiv’ horizon as a separate phenomenon that occurred in Thrace with a
terminus post quem at the peak of Coslogeni; its distribution seems to follow a rather
direct north-south route, reaching the Aegean coast and Thasos.

As a separate event, the incised pottery in Upper Thrace and, for the most part, that in
the East Rhodopean area appears rather independently and seemingly at an earlier
stage of the LBA. It is extremely rich in ornamentation and distinct from previous
ceramic traditions in Thrace in general. Incised ceramics are well known from earlier
Bronze Age contexts as isolated examples, but the new decorative style is quite
distinctive as are the vessel shapes. The rich ornamentation style from the East
Rhodopes is considered local for this area, but it is hard to ignore its appearance as a
developed style as well as the introduction of a new incision technique – the
furchenstich – as well as the re-introduction of encrustation. Furthermore, the
mountains seem to be entirely depopulated during the EBA, which means that the LBA
population cannot have been local. In terms of decoration and decoration techniques,
similarities can be found with various cultural groups on the other side of the Danube
River. Close analogies can be seen in cultures like Verbicoara and Tei IV as well as some
elements that are reminiscent of vessels from the later Govora group. The novelty of
the decorative style, the similarity of the motifs, and the replication of shapes suggest
that the origins of the East Rhodopean tradition must be related to an extent to the
southern part of the Carpathian Basin or that these groups had a common ancestor that
led to the dispersal of culturally similar entities. Some motifs and ornaments could be
paralleled in the earlier MBA, Monteoru and Wietenberg cultures in the northern
Carpathian Basin

The parallels are many and different elements can be seen in a number of cultural
groups along the Danube and in the Carpathian region. This does not mean that Thracian
incised pottery is derived directly from the cultural groups in the Great Hungarian Plain,
but it rather points to the early origins and potential spread of both human populations
and cultural traditions that eventually arrived south of the Balkan Mountains. What is
interesting is that these roots can be traced to the MBA and even to the EBA in these
northwestern regions. The Hungarian MBA is placed roughly between 2000 and
1600/1500 BC according to radiocarbon data (Raczky et al. 1992).

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10042028/1/Nenova_10042028_thesis_volume1_redacted.pdf

There can be no doubt that the East Rhodopean group which appeared in the LBA can be traced back to the Carpathian cremation block. Its exact origin might be harder to pin down, but the most likely source culture is late Verbicoara/Fundeni-Govora:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-area-of-three-Late-Bronze-Age-archaeological-cultures-Monteoru_fig1_303677285

Once they crossed the Balkan mountain range, they were basically in the area of the East Rhodopes. With the East Rhodopes being practically depopulated in the Bulgarian MBA.

Concerning the different groups of Pre-Stamped Ware: First off, we clearly see a steppe-Cimmerian influence involved in the development of it. There can be little doubt about that. This means that first impulses are likely to have started in areas closer to say e.g. Belozerka. The second issue is that it was in my opinion developing out of a Gáva-related sphere and its spread will be hard to trace for sure, since it happened in a fairly short period of time. The radiocarbon dates are not plentiful and not always perfectly calibrated, which makes since not much easier either.

The next point is that Stamped Pottery groups look more or minimum as much differentiated as Gáva, therefore I don't expect them to be the result of one group expanding over another. This is particularly true for three of the most important groups, namely Psenichevo, Babadag and Bosut-Basarabi. Their evolution and characteristics are similar, but not the same, which means that they likely retained a sort of division established in the earlier Channelled Ware period.

In this context the most important group for E-V13 as a whole is likely not Psenichevo, which is South Thracian and so far yielded primarily E-BY5022, which could have even come earlier in the LBA, associated with say Fundeni-Govora expansion to the East Rhodopes, but Basarabi.
Now if tracing back where Basarabi came from, that's Oltenia and Banat. Probably primarily Oltenia.

The big question to me is whether E-Z5017/E-Z5018 and especially the latter was situated in the EIA in Oltenia-Banat with Basarabi or further North even, in areas like Transylvania-Transcarpathia.

For being able to say anything with certainty in this respect, we need the data from the research we already know:
- Transylvanian EBA-MBA-LBA which show local Copper Age continuity
- Gomolava mass burial, Kalakacza group, which was in between Belegis II-Gáva and Bosut-Basarabi chronologically
- Transylvanian Scythians-Celts, which had a local Balkan-like component
- Roman Dacian samples

All taken together are about 200-300 relevant samples for the debate and all of them were presented on various occasions already, most on the latest EAA 2024.

In an ideal case scenario, we don't just get autosomal samples, and not just yDNA, but some high resolution samples.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Dardanians took part in the Illyrian revolt? The Dardani that encountered the Romans had to have been Illyrian. They had Daco-Thracian subjects, which based on this map did not join the revolt and based on onomastic evidence were not assimilated into Illyrians.

 

[Hawk]

They were probably operating on their own and not having a sense of affiliating with broader groups, but based on the name Dardani it's clear cut that the name appears among Daco-Mysians. Also, Mediana group whom contributed to Dardanii group seem to have kept close contact with Psenicevo group for a time after LBA-EIA split.

This Mediana/Gava-Medias broke the continuity of Illyrian-like and Brnjica group that were residing in Kosovo area since Bronze Age.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

They were probably operating on their own and not having a sense of affiliating with broader groups, but based on the name Dardani it's clear cut that the name appears among Daco-Mysians. Also, Mediana group whom contributed to Dardanii group seem to have kept close contact with Psenicevo group for a time after LBA-EIA split.

This Mediana/Gava-Medias broke the continuity of Illyrian-like and Brnjica group that were residing in Kosovo area since Bronze Age.

I agree the name Dardanian is not Illyrian. But that does not change the fact that the historical Dardanian kingdom seem to have expanded west to east. And their royalty also had Illyrian names like Bato, Teuta. To me it looks like an Illyrian group that expanded into a region known for a long time as Dardania and kept the name and probably married some of the non-Illyrian elites.

The map of the Illyrian revolt is a very telling ethnic map for the central Balkans.

 

[torzio]

Dardanians took part in the Illyrian revolt? The Dardani that encountered the Romans had to have been Illyrian. They had Daco-Thracian subjects, which based on this map did not join the revolt and based on onomastic evidence were not assimilated into Illyrians.

which revolt? against augustus in AD times, ?.......there was only Dalmatian and pannonian tribes in the revolt.....i supplied all the tribes names and numbers in the past as per roman documents

 

[PaleoRevenge]

It's a wikipedia map, don't know if it's accurate, cannot vouch for it.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

This seems like a good time to requote the abstract:

In this study we report archaeogenetic results from individuals from Transylvania and the surrounding regions in Romania, spanning the Neolithic to the Late Bronze Age. We report a surprising level of genetic continuity within Transylvania, with little evidence for an influx of steppe-related ancestry into individuals associated with the main cultural groups until the Late Bronze Age, coinciding with the arrival of people associated with the Noua culture. In stark contrast to this, we also find evidence for Yamnaya and Yamnaya-related groups from the Early Bronze Age who appear to have been unsuccessful in making a genetic foothold in the region. In summary, we find that Transylvania was at times a melting pot of genetic profiles, but still maintained a relatively continuous genetic legacy during the Copper Age and much of the Bronze Age.

-Samples are compared to surrounding regions of Transylvania.
-The author find a suprising level of continuity within Transylvania. If these people were just like the surrounding samples, they would not be surprising or say within.
-Low steppe profiles. Gee, the only unsolved mystery group of tribes with low steppe profile are the EIA E-V13s that show up out of nowhere.

And if one tally up the archeological evidence and trail, the trajectory is pretty obvious.

 

[Hawk]

I agree the name Dardanian is not Illyrian. But that does not change the fact that the historical Dardanian kingdom seem to have expanded west to east. And their royalty also had Illyrian names like Bato, Teuta. To me it looks like an Illyrian group that expanded into a region known for a long time as Dardania and kept the name and probably married some of the non-Illyrian elites.

The map of the Illyrian revolt is a very telling ethnic map for the central Balkans.

But they also have royal names like Monunious which appears among Odrysians.

 

[Riverman]

This seems like a good time to requote the abstract:



-Samples are compared to surrounding regions of Transylvania.
-The author find a suprising level of continuity within Transylvania. If these people were just like the surrounding samples, they would not be surprising or say within.
-Low steppe profiles. Gee, the only unsolved mystery group of tribes with low steppe profile are the EIA E-V13s that show up out of nowhere.

And if one tally up the archeological evidence and trail, the trajectory is pretty obvious.

Another factor is that Transtisza/Transylvania is the ONLY sufficiently sized territory stil not sufficiently sampled. It's that simple. Some other areas are not well tested either, BUT we got relevant samples from their ancestral or descendant groups, respectively, leaving little room for big surprises.
Like Encrusted Pottery is just out, Illyrians are just out, Mycenaean Greeks are out, Monteoru is out, Srubnaya into Sabatinovka is out, Mierzanowice is out etc.

And like you say, the archaeological trail is absolutely clear and straightforward.

 

[Johane Derite]

Dardanians took part in the Illyrian revolt? The Dardani that encountered the Romans had to have been Illyrian. They had Daco-Thracian subjects, which based on this map did not join the revolt and based on onomastic evidence were not assimilated into Illyrians.

As far as i have read from the main classical sources that cover the subject, there are no ancient references describing the Dardanians taking part in the so called Illyrian revolt, which was in truth mainly a delmato-pannonian revolt that also bled into Illyria.

That map is the work of a wikimapper called Cristiano64, it isn't an academic source based on precise locations given by ancient authors.

If you find any classical sources describing Dardani taking part in this revolt I would love to read up on that. Otherwise his demarcations are probably based on the assumption that since Dardanians must be Illyrians, they must also have taken part in the Illyrian Revolt, which is just a poor tautology.

For example, in the during the time Teuta, the Dardanians were not allied with the Illyrians.

Polybius:

2.6.3 The Illyrians holding Phoinike at first united with Scerdilaidas, and advancing to Helicranum encamped opposite the Achaeans the Aitolians who had come to the rescue, and were anxious to give battle. 4 But the ground was very difficult and unfavorable to them, and just at this time a dispatch came from Teuta ordering them to return home by the quickest route, as some of the Illyrians had revolted to the Dardanians. 5 They therefore, after plundering Epirus, made a truce with the Epirots.


Likewise 50 years later the Dardanians were allied with the Romans against the Illyrians:

Dardanians took part in the Illyrian revolt? The Dardani that encountered the Romans had to have been Illyrian. They had Daco-Thracian subjects, which based on this map did not join the revolt and based on onomastic evidence were not assimilated into Illyrians.

As far as i have read from the main classical sources that cover the subject, there are no ancient references describing the Dardanians taking part in the so called Illyrian revolt, which was in truth mainly a delmato-pannonian revolt that also bled into Illyria.



That map is the work of a wikimapper called Cristiano64, it isn't an academic source based on precise locations of Dardanian battles during the revolt given by ancient authors.



If you find any classical sources describing Dardani taking part in this revolt I would love to read up on that. Otherwise his demarcations are probably based on the assumption that since Dardanians must be Illyrians, they must also have taken part in the Illyrian Revolt, which is just a poor tautology that is unfortunately too commonly repeated when it comes to Dardanians.



For example, during the time of Teuta, the Dardanians were not allied with the Illyrians:



Polybius:



2.6.3 The Illyrians holding Phoinike at first united with Scerdilaidas, and advancing to Helicranum encamped opposite the Achaeans the Aitolians who had come to the rescue, and were anxious to give battle. 4 But the ground was very difficult and unfavorable to them, and just at this time a dispatch came from Teuta ordering them to return home by the quickest route, as some of the Illyrians had revolted to the Dardanians. 5 They therefore, after plundering Epirus, made a truce with the Epirots.





Likewise 50 years later the Dardanians were allied with the Romans against the Illyrians:



§ 28.8.1 Perseus sent Pleuratus the Illyrian, who had taken refuge with him, and Adaeus of Beroea, as envoys to King Genthius, 2 with instructions to announce to him what had happened in the war he was engaged in against the Romans and Dardanians, and for the present at least with the Epirots and Illyrians; and to solicit him to enter into an alliance with himself and the Macedonians.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Those names though, plehraxhi, shkerdhat, lmao. These people allegedly spoke Albanian.

 

[torzio]

we should check the failed celtic invasion of delphi greece and the settlement of these failed scordisic -celtic tribe with the dardani people

 

[Riverman]

we should check the failed celtic invasion of delphi greece and the settlement of these failed scordisic -celtic tribe with the dardani people

The Scordisci settled between Daco-Moesian tribes and clearly intermixed with them. I think they played a role for E-V13, rather than the Albanians. Namely by a lot of these mixed Celtic people, including lots of E-V13 males, moving to the West along the trading routes, but also when the Dacians pushed the Celtic tribal alliances back. As a result, a lot of those assimilated newly Celtic E-V13 lineages arrived in areas West of the Danube bent, even West of the Alps, where they were less common before.

 

[Hawk]

The area in Viminacium and surroundings during Iron Age and up to Late Iron Age was originally a Triballian territory.

When Scordisci Celtic people invaded the region probably they had some Illyrian subjects with themselves.

But the Dacians led by Burebista massacred these people anyway

 

[Riverman]

The area in Viminacium and surroundings during Iron Age and up to Late Iron Age was originally a Triballian territory.

When Scordisci Celtic people invaded the region probably they had some Illyrian subjects with themselves.

But the Dacians led by Burebista massacred these people anyway

And keep in mind that we never know what hides behind "Celtic" La Tene culture. The small sample from Transylvania shows, according to the upcoming results, no significant foreign (Central, Eastern, Southern European) admixture at all.

However, this eastern ancestry did not persist after the “Scythian”
period, with subsequent “Celtic” Age associated individuals (n=6) carrying primarily the pre-existing local ancestry
with limited evidence of additional central European or eastern gene flow.

Programme

www.e-a-a.org

Even though some Transylvanian cemeteries (I have no idea from which one they gathered the samples though) are pretty typical La Tene period ones, which could have been fully or at least heavily mixed Celtic too, going by the artefacts.

 

[torzio]

@Riverman

i do not recall any illyrian-celtic friendly mixing until 2nd century BC in south east noricum.......the early celtic mix looks east to mix with pannonians and dacians.....the E-V13 looks like this would be the area

 

[Hawk]

Not a big fan of Thraco-Phrygian type of helmet (i like more the Chalcidian type of helmet which is more abundant among Thracian material culture) but this here is an amazing art of work, beautiful piece of helmet. Thracian metal-working is next level.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I wonder when we will get a second round of Roman era Serbia samples. There is no way the sampling stopped after three samples were analyzed from Naissus.