Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

It's sort of funny because the archaeologicaly unattested burials also in many cases refer to Insula Banului a Stamped-Ware/Channeled-Ware Culture related to Psenicevo and Babadag and to Gava as well.

We find the same in Nyirseg, Suciu de Sus, Lapus, Verbicoara, Tei, Fundeni-Govora, Gáva-Holigrady, Babadag, Psenichevo, Insula Banului, Sanislau-Nir group of Vekerzug, later Dacians.
So basically a continuous tradition around the Upper Tisza and Olt rivers in particuliar from post-Cotofeni, the later EBA up to the historical period, even the end of the Dacians as a people.
In all those groups since Nyirseg the ratio of burials vs. general finds is low, suggesting they used a method to dispose the remains of their dead which left no traces or is very hard to trace.

For the later Dacians we got the historical account of kind of holy places, tends, in which the ashes of the dead were dispersed. Such places would be very hard to find archaeologically, but even worse would be waters.

I would consider such untraceable burial rites to be a primary marker for E-V13 and Daco-Thracians, which is one of the big reasons to assume a continuous development from Nyirseg -> Suciu de Sus -> Lapus I -> Lapus II-Gáva/Gáva-Holigrady -> North Thracians/Dacians.

If in some areas the urn burials are rare, one has to keep in mind that this kind of disposal was used by the Daco-Thracians as well. This is also true for Bulgaria and the first appearance of Channelled Ware/Knobbed Ware there.
 
Haplogroups of Bulgaria from southern Arc, yellow = Iron Age, green= Bronze Age. Not only is there a Y-haplogroup swap, but mtDNA as well. During Bronze Age haplogroup H is 1/9 ratio, in Iron Age it is 50%. Haplogroup U has the reverse relationship.

ieGsJiN.png
 
That's quite interesting. I went for the most specific haplogroups first and came across these:


1. https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H1e1b1/

The dating seems to be a bit off, but its interesting where this haplogroup pops up:
- Post-Psenichevo (BGR_IA) Thracians
- Avar-Early Hungarian
- Albanians
- Northern and Central Europe
- Italy

2. https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H13b1/

- Romania
- Hungary
- Croatia
- Central Eastern Europe
- Italy

3. https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H13a1a1/
Very general haplogroup, but some of the oldest samples come from
- Hungary
- Czechia

All three branches are relatively well-represented in ancient and modern Hungarian DNA samples.
 
I found an interesting paper, it looks like the papers thesis and conclusion is based on older paper results not related to the the upcoming TransCarpathian paper. Someone pretty much wrote what I did some weeks ago on the Hutsuls.

FOLKLORE TRADITIONS OF THE POPULATION OF TRANSCARPATHIA IN THE CONTEXT OF POPULATION GENETICS
Key words: folklore, Transcarpathia, archaeology, DNA.


The regional specificity of the Transcarpathian folklore has contrasting differences on the all-Ukrainian background, which has repeatedly put Ukrainian researchers in an uncomfortable position regarding the national belonging of these phenomena. On the other hand, none of the folklore traditions of the neighboring folks have a complete correspondence in terms of the main phenomena composition with the Transcarpathian folklore. There are also differences between the folklore traditions of the Hutsuls, Boyks and Lemks who live on the other side of the Carpathian Range. The search for an answer to the question about this feature did not yield an answer both at the philological and geographical level. The main reason lies in the underestimation of the age of these features. Their greatest uniqueness is due to the calendar folklore, or rather to its almost complete absence among Hutsuls. On the one hand, this is easily explained by the pastoral economic specificity of the population and, in this connection, the absence of genres related to agrarian magic (spring songs – vesnianky). On the other hand, the Kupala songs are also little known here, among which there are many motives for marriage.

After all, the marriage periods of shepherds and farmers also occur in different periods. It is even more difficult to explain the lack of lyrical songs in the Hutsul dialect and their abundance in Boyks and Lemks folklore. Among the Hutsuls, all these requests are satisfied by a kolomyika. Paradoxically, the folklore of the Basques and Greeks is closest to the Hutsul tradition.

Thus, it becomes obvious that answers to the question of the Hutsul folklore uniqueness should be sought not in the present, but in ancient layers of ethnohistory.


The uniqueness of the Hutsul region on the archaeological background in the context of the folklore spread is determined by the fact that the main agricultural culture of the Neolithic era, the culture of linear and ribbon ceramics, which had a decisive influence on the formation of agricultural traditions and at the same time the means of magical influence on the vegetation function of the land, bypassed Transcarpathia. It was barely touched by the culture of the Trypillia ploughmen, and even then, at the late stage of its existence.

Instead, Transcarpathia was mastered by the Starcevo culture with the pastoral specificity of the economy. This determined the further development of folklore traditions, which are closely related to the method of production. Further Eneolithic archaeological cultures of Polgar and Baden only deepened this specificity.

The settlement of this population in the region confirms the modern DNA clusters composition of the local population. Among them, a third are representatives of the most common haplogroup R1a1 in Eastern Europe, a third is Proto-Indo-European I1 and its Balkan genetic modification I2, and a third is Middle Eastern E1b1b1a1b, which spread to the territory of Transcarpathia in the Neolithic era. While Proto-Indo-European and Aryan can be considered to be of later origin here (III – 1st millennium BC), the primary basis of the local population seems to be Middle Eastern (it migrated from the territory of modern Egypt in the 5th millennium BC). It determined the traditional matrix of local folklore. Therefore, Hutsul folklore finds its closest counterparts among the Northern Macedonians, Albanians, Greeks, and Gagauz, where the Middle Eastern genetic component has approximately the same percentage. The further assimilation of the population changed its genetic proportions, and with the steady preservation of economic and cultural traditions, it did not have a significant impact on the specifics of folklore.

Translated portion:
much more information about the influence on modern traditional culture can be given by DNA analysis of the male population. Samples from the database of Y-haplotypes, performed by Serbian bio-geneticists under the leadership of I. Veselinovych, and also conducted by scientists of the Institute of Molecular Biology and Genetics of the National Academy of Sciences under the leadership of S. Kravchenko together with their foreign colleagues, which are posted in the YHRD resource, give very similar results of Voivodeship "Rusyns" from Novy Sad and the Ukrainian population of Uzhhorod. In both cases, two haplogroups dominate in similar proportions: R1a1 (43.5 and 30%, respectively) and E1b1b1a2 (26.1 and 25%) [15; 16]. However, haplogroup I2a2, which is associated with the Balkan migration vector, and Western European R1b1b2, which among the male population of Uzhhorod are 20 and 15%, respectively, are absent in the Voivodeship sample. Both in one and in the other samples, the representativeness of the pro-European haplogroup I1 was not noticeable (8.7 and 5%).

All the given results reveal a significantly overestimated percentage of the male population of the E1b1b1a haplogroup among Carpathian Ukrainians and a slightly lower percentage compared to the all-Ukrainian percentage of the R1a1 haplogroup. However, this distribution applies only to mountainous regions, those where there is no rite of inducing rain. And in the places where the culture of linear-ribbon ceramics was spread from the Neolithic era to today, the male population with the Y-chromosome I2 dominates.

Apparently, the uniqueness of Ukrainian Hutsul culture should be attributed to the influence of the population with the male haplogroup E1b1b. It is enough to analyze its genetic share among peoples close to its ancestral homeland. The general picture of the distribution of carriers of this haplogroup is as follows: Kosovar Albanians – 44%, Achaean Greeks – 44%, Magnisian Greeks – 40%, Transcarpathian Ukrainians – 32–33%, Argosian Greeks – 35%, Gypsies of North Macedonia – 30%, Epirus Greeks – 29%, Macedonian Slavs – 22%, Serbs – 19%, Macedonian Greeks – 19–24%, Bulgarians – 16%.


It's hard to make out how they got the Uzhgorod results, but they seem to be referring to this study.


Hutsul mtDNA tables:
MtDNA-%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%96-%D0%B3%D1%83%D1%86%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8-.png

%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%96-%D0%B3%D1%83%D1%86%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8-%D0%94%D0%9D%D0%9A.jpg


Breakdown of H:
mtDNA-H-768x499.png



18.4% H1.
 
The amount of sock-puppet accounts created in genarchivist is crazy, the same person with at least 5 accounts posting in the same thread.
 
You don't see that behavior from other European genetic projects, not even Greeks from their project send reps to create sock accounts.
 
The bosnian made a good call here:

The Blisk samples seem to be only E-L618 but that's still a good call.
 
There are two steppe influences in Transylvania, one being the early, related to Usatovo and Cernovada, constituting the shift from earlier Copper Age groups to Cotofeni, and the latter being with Yamnaya. But at the time of Yamnaya, we already have an established Cotofeni population, which just adopts some customs from nearby Yamnaya people. Like the built Yamnaya-type kurgans, but in the burials were their people with their grave goods, just as an example.
But this continuous steppe influence on Cotofeni results in the successor groups, like Livezile.

Worth to note that even in the later periods, the successor groups did oftentimes cremate thier dead, as we can see in Mako, Nagyrev and Niyrseg as well. I think that the latter might represent later E-V13 dominated Proto-Thracians the best.

Crucial for the early steppe influence in Transylvania are not the later Yamnaya sites, but Decea Muresului. Note that we got preliminary mtDNA/basic genetic results from an old paper, which already claimed steppe influence on Decea Muresului.

On the group:
In Romania, to this stage are attributed the following cultures: Gumelniţa, Sălcuţa,
Petreşti, Cucuteni, Tiszapolgár, Bodrogkeresztúr, Decea Mureşului, Cernavoda I as well as
Foeni and Stoicani-Aldeni cultural groups (Dragomir 1983; Petrescu-Dîmboviţa 2001;
Ursulescu 2002; Drașovean 2004, 2005). In the Romanian archaeological schools’
acceptation, some of these cultures are the result of the evolution of some of the earlier
cultures (e.g., the Gumelniţa culture evolves from the Boian culture, the Cucuteni culture
evolves from the Precucuteni culture, etc.) (Dumitrescu et alii 1983; Comşa 1987, 1993).
Others instead (e.g., Bodrogkeresztúr culture) are a continuation of the same chrono-cultural
level (e.g., Tiszapolgár culture) (Luca 1999; Petrescu-Dîmboviţa 2001).
At the same time, the cultural phenomena such as Decea Mureşului and Cernavoda I
are considered to be the result of the insertion of non-indigenous populations, coming from
the North Pontic steppes.
The material culture of these communities differs fundamentally
from that of the Eneolithic cultures, fact that places them closer to the cultures of the
transition period from the Eneolithic to the Bronze Age (Berciu 1961; Morintz & Roman
1968; Dodd-Oprițescu 1978; Luca 1999; Petrescu-Dîmboviţa 2001).


I see the main steppe influence on Transylvania coming from Decea Muresului, ultimately from Usatovo-Gorodsk/Cernavoda, and not from Yamnaya. The site of Gorgan is interesting:

The trench revealed two distinct cultural layers, the above belonging to the Coţofeni Culture (the beginning of phase III in its evolution) and the lower belonging to the Decea Mureşului Culture (copper age) (fig.4-5).
[...]
The Decea Mureşului houses also revealed pottery with specific ornaments (pl. I-VI),
chipped and polished lithics (pl. III/1, 3-4) and a very well preserved small copper chisel within
the cultural layer (pl. VII/4). The stratigraphical results confirmed the hypothesis that this hill was
raised for habitation purposes by the prehistoric communities (Decea Mureşului and Coţofeni
Cultures).
The complex stratigraphy, the archaeology and the materials revealed are very important in
clarifying important aspects of the developed and late Eneolithic phenomenon in the intra-
Carpathian area. These are only some of the reasons that determined the planning of wide and
systematic excavations at this site in the near future.



Concernig Cotofeni and its relationship to Livezile-Soimus in particular, those are descendants which just got additional Yamnaya influence, like described above - we know that from the archaeological research already - and yes, Cotofeni has some of the strongest (!) Copper Age influences of all the cultures post-steppe expansion in Europe, so we have to expect them to be rich in EEF - this is what we can deduce from archaeological research, and this is what the abstract on the genetic results suggests. Note that Cotofeni, Livezile and Soimus got sampled, so if the paper writes about continuity, there was continuity from Cotofeni to Livezile and Soimus. Archaeologically, the situation is absolutely clear as well:

2. The content needs to be reinterpreted, not being excluded that what P. Roman, but also other specialists, including me, have defined as Coŗofeni I is, in fact, a last, final phase of the evolution of Cernavodë culture III (!). Question marks were raised, but they were reduced to statements that would rather look at the origin of the Coŗofeni culture than the content of its first phase. In this way, I do not exclude that in the future the Coŗofeni evolutionary phases will not only be redefined, but also the name of the phenomena that cover the vast cultural area, today called "Coŗofeni" (!), will be changed. Since I will return to this aspect through a special study, I will summarize here these observations, which will, of course, have to be argued in the future.

Another major problem of current research, with repercussions also in the terminological spectrum, is that of establishing the elements that distinguish, in its essence, the Coŗofeni culture from the early bronze groups/cultures that succeed it in its territory. And which groups/cultures did not always convince specialists by the way they were defined. I insist on Transylvania, as the "heart" of the phenomenon, but also the largest region in its area of spread. The so-called Livezile group, in the form in which it was defined, would not contain any major distinctive element compared to the Coŗofeni culture233, perhaps with the exception of the generalized practice of burials under tumuli with stone mantles. On the contrary, there are extremely many common elements, from habitat type, subsistence strategies, occupations, including similarities between forms and the decoration of ceramic vessels, but also regarding a reduced processing of copper.
The Şoimuş cultural group 234, which normally, I think should succeed the Coŗofeni culture, in its southwestern area, including part of the Western Mountains, but also parts of Banat and Lower Mures, presents similar characteristics, if we abstraction from the ceramic style. Moreover, the metal pieces are obviously less in the Şoimuş sites than in the Coŗofeni III235! The CopaĈceni group, defined as the main group, is located on the same coordinates

cultural entity of the Early Bronze Age in the center of Transylvania236. A substantial change in cultural realities, with an impact on the type of habitat, material culture, spiritual life, etc., takes place in the last stage of the Early Bronze Age (BT III), respectively during the great Gornea-Foeni group237. Only now are we essentially moving away from the Coŗofeni matrix. Therefore, what prevents us from treating the early bronze groups mentioned together with the contents of the Coŗofeni II-III phases?
The phenomenological aspect/bronze metallurgy? No, and we'll see why below.

Also highly important, with Late Cotofeni starts the cremation rite in the Transtisza/Transylvanian area, which being regularly interrupted by invaders, which introduce inhumation again, but the local always fall back to cremation afterwards (invaders like Yamnaya, Maros group, Füzesabony-Otomani, Noua-Coslogeni-Sabatinovka, Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Celts etc.):

Funeral practices. Within the Coŗofeni culture, bi-ritualism was practiced with, it seems, a preponderance of the cremation rite in the last phases. As for the practice of erecting tumuli as funerary monuments, although it has been proven that the members of the Coŗofeni communities sometimes use them in the final phase, they are still not characteristic of this world, but of an epi-Coŗofeni era.

The main difference to groups like Copaceni, Livezile, Soimus etc. is this Yamnaya influence, especially visible in the funerary rites, when they built kurgans in the Yamnaya style for their deceased. Its an open question of how much influence the Yamnaya had on the Cotofeni people, but I doubt their influence was bigger than that from the Usatovo-Cernavoda sphere, which influences were formative for the emergence of Cotofeni, as this author absolutely stresses.


Google translate from:

My expection is therefore, that the actual results from multiple sites relevant to the inner Carpathian, Transylvanian region, will reveal a population which is both low in steppe and WHG admixture, and mostly EEF, but the steppe input will be signfiicant and well in the double digits for sure. And this will come from the early intrusions from the East, which can be seen with sites which show influence from Usatovo and Cernavoda, like Decea Muresului, which is a steppe influenced site as well, but the connection is even bigger and stronger than in Baden.
I think that the early steppe admixture will decrease from East to West, therefore Baden has the least, Cernavoda has most, Cotofeni in the middle.
 
Given the high growth/branching of E-V13 during MBA, it's unrealistic in my opinion that Wietenberg was not E-V13 dominated, the branching of E-V13 suggests they took over the entire Transylvanian niche habitat.

Last week I was rereading the works on Brnjica and one site near Kosovo or in Kosovo had ceramics that the archeologist identified with Wietenberg . Brnjica was an LBA culture that existed when Noua overran Wietenberg. It looks like the Noua invasion caused some exodus in early LBA and caused some Wietenberg people to scatter, this same event could explain the possible E-V13 sample in LBA Denmark.
 
You don't see that behavior from other European genetic projects, not even Greeks from their project send reps to create sock accounts.

jspy just quoted himself (targaryen) and saying they need to calm down haha. Dude suffers from some multiple personality disorder. That's quite bad and sad actually.
 
Given the high growth/branching of E-V13 during MBA, it's unrealistic in my opinion that Wietenberg was not E-V13 dominated, the branching of E-V13 suggests they took over the entire Transylvanian niche habitat.

Last week I was rereading the works on Brnjica and one site near Kosovo or in Kosovo had ceramics that the archeologist identified with Wietenberg . Brnjica was an LBA culture that existed when Noua overran Wietenberg. It looks like the Noua invasion caused some exodus in early LBA and caused some Wietenberg people to scatter, this same event could explain the possible E-V13 sample in LBA Denmark.

I think so too, but keep in mind how populous groups like Suciu de Sus were. Compared to the scattered huts and caves in most of Southern Thrace, they were a demographic powerhouse and they largely moved out, at the end of the Bronze Age. A good question is whether this was primarily a knock on effect, like one group pushing the next, or whether they truly radiated out from their centre. It was probably both, with the main Suciu de Sus into Gáva block creating the core/Northern branches, whereas some older branches could have been spread from an older Carpathian cremation group base, which kind of joined the Channelled Ware phenomenon in the transitional phase. Since they were related and spoke the same/a related language, those groups could have more easily assimilated than foreigners like Encrusted Pottery, actual Sabatinovka herders (not possible local Wietengberg derived in Noua-Coslogeni groups, which might have existed), Paeonians, Brygi, Illyrians and Greeks.
Because those foreign male lineages were NOT assimilated on a bigger scale, because otherwise we would see their parallel development from about 1.300-1.000 onward with E-V13 branches, but this is rarely/if ever the case, making it a full replacement event which displaced or annihilated most of the local lineages of other people.
 
jspy just quoted himself (targaryen) and saying they need to calm down haha. Dude suffers from some multiple personality disorder. That's quite bad and sad actually.

Brumi has multiple accounts too. You don't see that from any other DNA project, other than India and Asia. These self-styled Illyrians emperors are building quite a reputation.
 
Brumi has multiple accounts too. You don't see that from any other DNA project, other than India and Asia. These self-styled Illyrians emperors are building quite a reputation.

Quite a lot of sock-puppet accounts from likely 2-3 people only.

For instance Ushta is clearly Brumi's alter ego, as Excine.
 
Guys, keep good work that's all i wanted to say. I enjoy this thread! We are what we are and truth can't be altered, hopefully. Cheers!
 
Guys, keep good work that's all i wanted to say. I enjoy this thread! We are what we are and truth can't be altered, hopefully. Cheers!

For E-V13 in general the data is on the way, I would not worry about that. One member from the Danubian Cosmopolitan table commented here once to brag about the publication of the preprint. It would be nice if they can drop hints if they are sampling Bassarabi sites in Serbia, and even better would be Bessi sites in late antiquity and Byzantine period. I am certain the samples from these locations would shut a lot of mouths up.
 
As for Berisha they are the oldest attested Albanian tribe, per record they initially kicked Latins from the place they inhabited.

GRjUx8OXMAEjzSu

GRjUx8ZXoAAyUw-


I assume the Latins were either some J2b2-L283 or R1b tribe.

Point being there is a compact E-V13 S2979 spread everywhere, and FGC33614 was part of them among Proto-Albanians.
 
As for Berisha they are the oldest attested Albanian tribe, per record they initially kicked Latins from the place they inhabited.

GRjUx8OXMAEjzSu

GRjUx8ZXoAAyUw-


I assume the Latins were either some J2b2-L283 or R1b tribe.

Point being there is a compact E-V13 S2979 spread everywhere, and FGC33614 was part of them among Proto-Albanians.

Latins have little to do with R-Z2103, it has always been mostly a balkan line. In terms of R1b lines Latins carry R-U152 which is very rare in Albanians
 
Latins have little to do with R-Z2103, it has always been mostly a balkan line. In terms of R1b lines Latins carry R-U152 which is very rare in Albanians

Latin speakers of Balkans, not Latini the Italic tribe. The South-Americans are also called Latinos but they have little to nothing to do with Latini.
 
They are desperately trying to hang their hat on that E-V13 is too diverse to have come as one, as if that is an argument. I'm pretty sure they have internal data that completely rebukes them, there will hardly be any E-V13 in EMA Albania. If they found it, trust me you would have heard some bragging.
The J2b branch pointed out by the mr Turkish hairlines has only one Arberesh and one Greek in ydna, same in familydna. We also have the Arberesh study where just over 100 samples yielded 4 JM12, 2.6% J2b. Very far from the alleged pan Albanian lineage he makes it out to be.
 
Latin speakers of Balkans, not Latini the Italic tribe. The South-Americans are also called Latinos but they have little to nothing to do with Latini.

South Americans speak a Latin language - maybe that's why they are called latinos. I'm sure some of them also have Italian/Latini yDNA

If we look at Romania which are Latin speakers, they don't have much J2b L283 so I don't think it was spread much by Latin speakers. Some J2B L283 was absorbed by proto Albanians particularly in the north (or was part of proto Albanians)
 
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