Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

I find the quote from Hawk intriguing, I do not see where the poster wrote about R-Z2103 being chased to the caves of Rhodopes during LBA-EIA transition, but I am relying on google translation and cannot read the thread freely.

I had to search, and he must be referring to these two quotes. R-Z2103 is not mentioned. But what he reveals makes it clear, E-V13 LBA-EIA explosion could not have happened out of Bulgaria. It's a dead-end 100%.







Urnfielders destroyed/depopulated bronze age Bulgaria and had a Baltic signal (just like Tollense), it is slowly unfolding now. Urnfielders = Lusatians

It mentions that they mixed with the locals who were heavy on ANF
 
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"Scholars have agreed that cremation began in the Stone Age, around 3000 B.C. Taking a western perspective, during the Stone Age cremation began to spread across northern Europe, as evidenced by decorative pottery urns in western Russia among the Slavic peoples."

Instead of "Slavic" people it would be the ancestors of Lusatians and then Urnfield spread it across Europe.
 
The other site posted buy Hawk, visualized. Šarengrad Klopare

2p1EkKr.png


This is a map of Avar khaganate in the same time period.

map_awaren.jpg


These samples are not locals, as the area was extremely depopulated and the previous IA population was gone, but they do represent nearby populations resettled by the Avars, E-V13 most likely came from Byzantine Serbia.

The most important thing from the graphs, it looks like all these samples are new and not additions to previous studies. What it shows is that Roman Croatia only had 13% E-V13 in whopping sample of 79. During the Avar period, E-V13 was 35% almost entirely concentrated in far eastern Croatia and they definitely represent a different population, the people of Byzantine Serbia(especially eastern half).
 
It will be interesting when the results of this study and previous studies are merged. Also would great to see all the subclades.
 
It will be interesting when the results of this study and previous studies are merged. Also would great to see all the subclades.

The samples in those pie charts are from different abstracts, the samples are indeed all new. It is unknown how many more papers these samples split into, we know at least three, two Avar period and one Roman period from the island of Hvar.

 
I also want to add and stress one more time how important the samples from Viminacium are, for a variety of reasons:
1) They prove that cremation being associated with E-V13 like with no other Carpatho-Balkan haplogroup. In Viminacium we see a transition of the local population to inhumation in the making, under Roman influence. It is absolutely evident, that among those locals which still cremated, a large fraction must have been E-V13, a much larger fraction than among those Romanised people, of which many were recent immigrants to the area.
2) We clearly see a Balkan Iron Age profile being associated with E-V13 in the Danube region. The outliers, similar to the Avar samples outliers, just prove the rule. A largely similar, but not necessarily the same, Balkan Iron Age profile being reported for locals among Scythians, La Tene Celts, Sarmatians and it will pop up among Germanics too.
3) We might see in areas like Viminacium and Timacum minus different strains, different ethnic groups of Daco-Thracians contributing to the total frequency in the Roman era, since people were highly mobile in the Roman Empire and especially between the Carpatho-Balkan Roman provinces.

In Viminacium we can elegantly subtract all the foreign outlier lineages, just like in the Avar Tisza region. Because who's clearly not even remotely close, not from the Carpatho-Balkans, is a clear cut thing. Some E-V13 might have been from other Carpatho-Balkan regions, yes, but they are still Carpatho-Balkan in origin, unlike these foreigners and assocaited with largely local Balkan IA autosomal profiles.


How some "Northern" E-V13 branches under E-S2979 could have ended up as far as Serbia early on:

There are not many objects in the Central Balkan area that could point to the Scythian influences during 6th and 4th century BC. Bronze arrowheads are the most frequent type of objects of Scythian origin in this area, and it seems that they appear at the end of the 7th century BC. Till nowadays, we registered around 100 arrowheads of this type. We have only 3 bronze zoomorphic-formed decorative plates that indicate Pontic origin and eastern provenience, but unlike arows and horse-bits, all of them point to 5th and early 4th century BC. Horse-bits and snaffles appear in the central Balkan region very early, at the end of 7th century BC, and we can connect them with the Szentes-Verkerzug type of horse-bits with zoomorphic ends. After that, horse-bits of the later Szentes-Verkerzug type still appear in this region, during the 6th and 5th century BC. Their appearance could be connected with the middle Danube and Tisza basins. Later horse-bits are connected with the eastern influences and the lower Danube region as well as the Black Sea, and they point to 5th century BC


And how those "Scythians" looked:


FR9CZ6 Ancient DNA samples from Iron Age, Roman Period and Migration Period Transylvania are coming.
Contrasting genetic impacts of eastern migrants on Early Iron Age communities in Hungary and TransylvaniaContent:
Ancient DNA from Iron Age nomads across the Eurasian steppe, including individuals from “Scythian” contexts, has revealed their varied genetic origins and high genetic diversity. However, little is known about their genetic impact and legacy on European communities. By analysing genomes of “Scythian” Age individuals from Transylvania (n=67, unpublished) and Hungary (n=7, previously published), we find ~40% eastern admixture in Transylvania but 0% in Hungary. In contrast to the trans-Eurasian migrations to the Pannonian Basin in the Avar period, the eastern ancestry in Transylvanian “Scythians” largely came from “Scythian” communities in neighbouring Moldova and Ukraine, which admixed into the pre-existing Balkan genetic substratum. In addition to eastern ancestry, we find multiple genetic outlier individuals from central/northern Europe and southern Balkans buried in “Scythian” contexts, implying a dynamic admixture process associated with the formation of these “Scythian” communities. From Transylvania, we reconstruct several families from “Scythian” burial contexts up to three generations deep, most consisting of members with and without eastern ancestry, documenting real-time admixture between locals and eastern migrants. Among these is also a case of siblings buried 11km apart. However, this eastern ancestry did not persist after the “Scythian” period, with subsequent “Celtic” Age associated individuals (n=6) carrying primarily the pre-existing local ancestry with limited evidence of additional central European or eastern gene flow.

The limited gene flow could relate to paternal lineages being Celtic, because they were buried in a Celtic context, but it proves without a doubl the persistence of the local North Thracian/Dacian elements.


So we have clear evidence, from a much larger sample, that the local ancestry in core Gáva/Vekerzug areas was the "pre-existing Balkan genetic substratum". This has nothing to do with already published samples, because its a huge sample of 67 (!) unpublished (!) samples from Transylvania! Therefore we have the ancient DNA evidence of:
1) A Balkan Iron Age-type of population in Transylvania before 700 BC
2) This Balkan Iron Age-type of population persisted and survived the Scythians and Celts, re-emerged with the Dacians.
Therefore we have evidence for genetic continuity in Transylvania from 3.000 BC to about 1.600 BC (Noua) and again from 700 BC to 100 BC. This leaves a mere gap of 1.600-700 BC, in which we know there was little replacement between Suciu de Sus -> Gáva -> Eastern Vekerzug. And if there was anything important, its all Basarabi-related, which in itself is a continuation of Southern Gáva/Belegis II-Gáva/Vartop from Oltenia in particular.

And that local dominance is already evident in the inhumed "Scythians", what do you guys think the cremating Vekerzug-Sanislau group will look like? They likely have even less admixture and even greater dominance of the pre-existing Balkan genetic substratum.

These genetic results just confirm the archaeological analyses done on the subject, which all point to high levels of local survival from Gáva -> Mezocsat -> Vekerzug -> La Tene -> Dacians - and they stress that the cremation rite is a serious problem for the anthropological/genetic analysis of the local Upper Tisza population:

Title:
Bioarchaeological research of the Iron Age populations of the Carpathian Basin - Past, present, and future
Content:

Due to their burial practice, the Hallstatt groups are considered almost anthropologically unknown. As for the Mezőcsát and Vekerzug cultures, the question arises whether they descended from the local Late Bronze Age inhabitants adapting lifestyle and some characteristic artefacts from the steppe region or did an eastward influx of populations during the EIA and MIA partially or fully assimilated the autochtons. The Celtic migration is also recognizable in the heterogeneous LIA osteological materials, however, according to previous and recent results, the local component remained more dominant.



Just like the Transylvanian paper for the Copper Age continuity in the region, up to Noua, but obviously persisting into Gáva, since Noua didn't take over for long, just like the other invaders, these are all brand new research results with so far unpublished samples!

But we get:
- Transylvania has Copper Age continuity (which means continuity to Bodrogkeresztur/Petresti/Tripolye-Cucuteni-like people, otherwise it wouldn't be a continuity)
- There was a pre-Scythian Balkan-like substratum in the region of Vekerzug
- This local Balkan-like population survived Scythians and Celts, re-emered with Dacians as a unified force which expanded.
 
It looks like there is quite a lot of V13 in Ancient Athens, didn't knew that's in-line.

Decades ago there was a talk about cremation burials in Attica, and Handmade Burnished-Ware influences which was a brotherly culture of Psenicevo and Knobbed-Ware.
 
It looks like there is quite a lot of V13 in Ancient Athens, didn't knew that's in-line.

Decades ago there was a talk about cremation burials in Attica, and Handmade Burnished-Ware influences which was a brotherly culture of Psenicevo and Knobbed-Ware.
Do we have any EV-13 samples from there or are basing your assertion on cultural grounds?
 
Do we have any EV-13 samples from there or are basing your assertion on cultural grounds?

I am not aware of any, someone mentioned in genarchivist, perhaps someone else leaked to him. I base the cultural/material ground based on some remote evidences which recently are usually avoided in talking but in early days they were more open.
 
It looks like there is quite a lot of V13 in Ancient Athens, didn't knew that's in-line.

Decades ago there was a talk about cremation burials in Attica, and Handmade Burnished-Ware influences which was a brotherly culture of Psenicevo and Knobbed-Ware.

The burnished ware is basically just Channelled/Knobbed Ware, essentially the same Gáva-related ceramic repertoire for fine ware. The black burnished surface resembled metal - clearly a sign for the association with metals and probably rituals, gods of the metals. Just like some ceramic bowls have similar golden ones.
Some areas of Greece, including Attica, were indeed influenced by Noua/Gáva related groups, however, going by the currently available evidence, it rather looks like they were pushed back by the locals, yet oddly enough some of their innovations and rituals, including cremation, were meant to stay.
In the past, there was often speculation about the Dorians in particular having Gáva-related influences, but currently we don't have any DNA evidence for the presence of E-V13 in either of them, Attica or the Dorians.
 
Well, there are thankfully non-Albanian E-V13s that serve as checks and balances in this regard. They have skin in the game and are curious about E-V13's origin but have no investment in the Albanian continuity melodrama.

My predictions for the spin and obfuscations they(bruzmi/corrigendum/hasangjekaj) will do if this trend continues are:

1. If we see eventually a pre-roman E-V13 branch from channelled ware incursions into Albania/west balkans, they will use this to obfuscate the core origin, push the one branch here, one branch there nonsense, as they already do with roman moesia samples and such.

2. They will double down on there "Dardano-Pannonian" Illyrians had E-V13 spin, which again suppresses the debate around the core origin of E-V13. They skip the indo-europeanisation of E-V13 and go straight to neolithic. E-V13 had its bronze age expansion as an Indo-european speaking people, so it's inherently contradictory the way they gloss over this core E-V13 group. They avoid the bronze age resurfacing of E-v13 like the plague. They do this because they play the "ev13 is an eef haplogroup" route, claiming multiple indo-europeanisation events into separate peoples, i.e. greeks assimilated one eef branch here, illyrians assimilated an eef branch there, when we know this is highly unlikely given the expansion of E-V13.

3. If it gets to the point where it is so undeniable, they will go the Thraco-Illyrian route, whereby they will claim Thracians as "Illryians of the east balkans" i.e. they were indo-european paleabalkanic brothers, their languages weren't so different after all, etc.
IMG-20240622-113658.jpg

Here for example bruzmi/corrigendum/hasangjekaj let the mask slip. Even some of his more die hard baboon followers will do a double take here and start to get an uneasy feeling in their stomach, as his narrative of EEF slave E-V13s assimilated by the Illyrian J2b-L283s comes out in the open.

As more and more channelled ware derived E-V13s show up expect this narrative to show up. E-V13 mobility can only be through slavery for him, not a massive expansion as is plainly shown by the tmrca of E-V13.
 
Indeed, the E-V13 phylogeny derived from moderns and the demographic evolution deducable from it are key parts of my argument altogether. E-V13 was probably 2-3 times larger than J-L283, rather more than less, in the MBA-EIA period. This means that E-V13 today is still a major haplogroup in Europeans is not due to the Roman era or later events, but due to the fact that the Daco-Thracians had such a massive demographic expansion already in the early phase, in the metal ages.
The Roman era was primarily a redistribution of the existing huge population and a big part of the modern E-V13 presence in the Balkans is due to very late Roman resettlement of the Dacians into largely depopulated areas.
I'm pretty confident this fresh "Dacian reinforcement" of E-V13 in much of the Balkans will show up with larger late Roman era sampling. Like a second spike of E-V13 increase in the Balkans, due to this large scale resettlements into largely depopulated areas of the Roman Balkan.
 
IMG-20240622-113658.jpg

Here for example bruzmi/corrigendum/hasangjekaj let the mask slip. Even some of his more die hard baboon followers will do a double take here and start to get an uneasy feeling in their stomach, as his narrative of EEF slave E-V13s assimilated by the Illyrian J2b-L283s comes out in the open.

As more and more channelled ware derived E-V13s show up expect this narrative to show up. E-V13 mobility can only be through slavery for him, not a massive expansion as is plainly shown by the tmrca of E-V13.

He comes out openly because he is threatened by leaks. And now has to resort to the coping mechanism of the J2b-Discord channel, like old women blabbering nonsense.
 
He comes out openly because he is threatened by leaks. And now has to resort to the coping mechanism of the J2b-Discord channel, like old women blabbering nonsense.
How would you know? 🤔
 
Y-HAPLOGROUP ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL BOSNIAN POPULATION: DISCOVERIES FROM ARCHAEOLOGICAL REMAINS

Archaeological sites in modern Bosnia and Herzegovina provide evidence of continuous life during the Middle Ages. This study aimed to ascertain Y-haplotypes, predict Y-haplogroups, and assess their frequencies in a sample of the medieval Bosnian population. DNA samples were collected from 42 male remains across 12 archaeological sites dating to medieval Bosnia. DNA extraction was performed using phenol-chloroform extraction from bones and teeth, followed by Y-STR analysis using the PowerPlex® Y23 System. Y-haplogroups were predicted using online software. Statistical analysis was conducted using the χ2 test with a significance level of p<0.05. The most frequently detected haplogroups were I2a, R1a, R1b, and J2a. The predominant haplogroup in both the medieval Bosnian and contemporary Bosnian and Herzegovinian populations was I2a. However, the European haplogroup E1B1b, present in 10% of the recent population, was absent in the medieval samples. This discrepancy may be attributed to factors such as limited successfully amplified Y-STR profiles, small sample size, and stochastic effects. The χ2 test revealed no significant differences in haplogroup frequencies between the medieval and contemporary populations. Based on the obtained Y-haplotypes, Y-haplogroups were detected for the first time, and their frequency in a sample of the medieval Bosnian population was determined.

No E-V13 in medieval Bosnia. The Illyrian association is pure fantasy.
 
Y-HAPLOGROUP ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL BOSNIAN POPULATION: DISCOVERIES FROM ARCHAEOLOGICAL REMAINS

Archaeological sites in modern Bosnia and Herzegovina provide evidence of continuous life during the Middle Ages. This study aimed to ascertain Y-haplotypes, predict Y-haplogroups, and assess their frequencies in a sample of the medieval Bosnian population. DNA samples were collected from 42 male remains across 12 archaeological sites dating to medieval Bosnia. DNA extraction was performed using phenol-chloroform extraction from bones and teeth, followed by Y-STR analysis using the PowerPlex® Y23 System. Y-haplogroups were predicted using online software. Statistical analysis was conducted using the χ2 test with a significance level of p<0.05. The most frequently detected haplogroups were I2a, R1a, R1b, and J2a. The predominant haplogroup in both the medieval Bosnian and contemporary Bosnian and Herzegovinian populations was I2a. However, the European haplogroup E1B1b, present in 10% of the recent population, was absent in the medieval samples. This discrepancy may be attributed to factors such as limited successfully amplified Y-STR profiles, small sample size, and stochastic effects. The χ2 test revealed no significant differences in haplogroup frequencies between the medieval and contemporary populations. Based on the obtained Y-haplotypes, Y-haplogroups were detected for the first time, and their frequency in a sample of the medieval Bosnian population was determined.

No E-V13 in medieval Bosnia. The Illyrian association is pure fantasy.

No J2b l283 either, what year are these samples dated?
 
Not a genetic abstract but relevant as the main excuse of not having any Dacian samples is that there simply aren't any. This is not true.

UlQ31iz.png


Just like the free Dacian culture of Lipitsa, small children were not cremated as they had not gone through the Dacian rite of passage and were given a inhumation burial.
 
11 years after Bulatovic published the Bessi paper, it looks like another site was found in Bulgaria in 2017. I wonder how many more such sites have been found to date.

A large settlement which was inhabited during the Early Iron Age (ca. 1,000 BC), possibly by Ancient Thracians, and then again in the Late Roman period (2nd-4th century AD), has been discovered and fully explored in rescue excavations near the town of Moshtanets, Blagoevgrad District, in Southwest Bulgaria, as part of the construction of the Struma Highway.

Thus, from the Late Roman period, the archaeological team has unearthed a total of 9 buildings, 16 pits, and 70 graves.
The earliest Roman Era structures have been found in the southeast part of the settlement. They date back to the 2nd-4th century AD.
The central part of the settlement has revealed mostly structures used for agricultural purposes. They date from the 4th-5th century AD.

Several types of graves have been found, including “regular grave pits”, “pits covered with stone slabs”, and pits covered with tegulae (Roman flat tiles).


The bottoms of some of the graves were paved with stone slabs or tegulae. Cremations were performed on site in the respective graves, and many of the graves containing cremated human remains were surrounded with stones.


“The number of graves without cremation is much smaller. It can be alleged that the corpse burials were preferred in child funerals, although some adults were also buried this way,” the Blagoevgrad Museum says.


 
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This could be interesting, getting high resolution from Bulgarians. Could find Albanian related clades too.

More than 400 participants in Sofia and Plovdiv have joined the first phase of "The Bulgarian Genome" project, which aims to collect and analyse a representative sample of the genomes of modern Bulgarians.

The project involves extensive sequencing of DNA isolated from blood samples to identify all variations.

In the first phase, one thousand healthy Bulgarian adults will be tested. "The Bulgarian Genome Initiative is part of a large-scale European project in which each country will submit a reference genome typical of its population.

"This is a chance for each of us to contribute to the health of our children, to our future as a nation, because donating our genetic data will help the development of medicine," said prof. Radka Kaneva, project leader. The samples will be used for research on genetic diseases, cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular diseases and neurodegenerative diseases.

 
Not a genetic abstract but relevant as the main excuse of not having any Dacian samples is that there simply aren't any. This is not true.

UlQ31iz.png


Just like the free Dacian culture of Lipitsa, small children were not cremated as they had not gone through the Dacian rite of passage and were given a inhumation burial.

It's sort of funny because the archaeologicaly unattested burials also in many cases refer to Insula Banului a Stamped-Ware/Channeled-Ware Culture related to Psenicevo and Babadag and to Gava as well.
 

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