Debate need clarification on the topic of Italian population genetics and its amateur and academic treatment

[Wisp]

Hi everyone, I've been passionate about archaeogenetics and population DNA for some time now and I've been on Reddit for a while, so I'd like to make this post to seek clarification that I can't find there in a uniform and coherent way. several times, regarding the genetics and DNA of the Italian population. I often read many posts (many of which come from some Redditors who seem to be solely interested in Italian genetics or any group related to them) that claim that Italians (particularly Southerners but also Central Italians) are a mixed breed between Western Asia/Canaanite and the European region, with around 50-60% of their DNA coming from MENA areas (especially the Levant) this theme is always emphasized whenever a post concerns Italians in particular, and as regards Northern Italians it is the thesis is in vogue that they are a cross between Germanic/Central European invaders and a basic Roman population like the modern southern Italians (Sicilian or Calabrian), thus arguing that Italy was the site of mass immigration both from the Middle East and from Northern/Central Europe and replacing, sometimes completely, the entire local Italian population. I recently read this post coming from the "23ndme" subreddit, which unfortunately I can't load the image but here is the link:https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/s/xOezWtMpyH
and he says "what if 23ndme was more honest with Italian genetic results?" what I am therefore looking for is clarification for the general picture regarding the genetics of the Italian population precisely because the information changes a lot and often seems very reductive and inconsistent, and as mentioned I have not yet developed the right knowledge to talk about topics of archaeogenetics and population DNA, in contrast to a large number of Reddit users who seem (apparently) to be experts in this regard, but as said in the end it all turns out to be very vague and directed so im asking here because this is, for now, another place where the topic of genetics and DNA is discussed outside reddit

 

[Vallicanus]

Hi everyone, I've been passionate about archaeogenetics and population DNA for some time now and I've been on Reddit for a while, so I'd like to make this post to seek clarification that I can't find there in a uniform and coherent way. several times, regarding the genetics and DNA of the Italian population. I often read many posts (many of which come from some Redditors who seem to be solely interested in Italian genetics or any group related to them) that claim that Italians (particularly Southerners but also Central Italians) are a mixed breed between Western Asia/Canaanite and the European region, with around 50-60% of their DNA coming from MENA areas (especially the Levant) this theme is always emphasized whenever a post concerns Italians in particular, and as regards Northern Italians it is the thesis is in vogue that they are a cross between Germanic/Central European invaders and a basic Roman population like the modern southern Italians (Sicilian or Calabrian), thus arguing that Italy was the site of mass immigration both from the Middle East and from Northern/Central Europe and replacing, sometimes completely, the entire local Italian population. I recently read this post coming from the "23ndme" subreddit, which unfortunately I can't load the image but here is the link:https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/s/xOezWtMpyH
and he says "what if 23ndme was more honest with Italian genetic results?" what I am therefore looking for is clarification for the general picture regarding the genetics of the Italian population precisely because the information changes a lot and often seems very reductive and inconsistent, and as mentioned I have not yet developed the right knowledge to talk about topics of archaeogenetics and population DNA, in contrast to a large number of Reddit users who seem (apparently) to be experts in this regard, but as said in the end it all turns out to be very vague and directed so im asking here because this is, for now, another place where the topic of genetics and DNA is discussed outside reddit

My family origins all lie in NW Tuscany and the earlier 23andMe ethnicity breakdown (circa 2020) gives me:

Italian 96.4 pc

Sardinian 2.4pc

Coptic Egyptian 1.2pc

My 6 closest regions, in order, are...Tuscany, Emilia-Romagna, Sicily, Campania, Abruzzo, Veneto.

I don't trust this company enough to pay for an update.

Ancestry.com is closer to reality:

Northern Italy 87pc

France 5pc

Sardinia 3pc

Southern Italy 2pc

England and Northwestern Europe 2pc

Basque 1pc.

 

[Wisp]

My family origins all lie in NW Tuscany and the earlier 23andMe ethnicity breakdown (circa 2020) gives me:

Italian 96.4 pc

Sardinian 2.4pc

Coptic Egyptian 1.2pc

My 6 closest regions, in order, are...Tuscany, Emilia-Romagna, Sicily, Campania, Abruzzo, Veneto.

I don't trust this company enough to pay for an update.

Ancestry.com is closer to reality:

Northern Italy 87pc

France 5pc

Sardinia 3pc

Southern Italy 2pc

England and Northwestern Europe 2pc

Basque 1pc.

yes, the Italian category in 23ndme has central Italy as its reference so it is logical that a Tuscan scores 95%> Italian. I also saw Sicilians scoring almost completely Italian while some published results reached 25% of Western Asia and North Africa. so I was asking for general clarification and if it is true that Italians are 50-60% Middle Eastern and North African as many say

---

 

[Vitruvius]

Hi everyone, I've been passionate about archaeogenetics and population DNA for some time now and I've been on Reddit for a while, so I'd like to make this post to seek clarification that I can't find there in a uniform and coherent way. several times, regarding the genetics and DNA of the Italian population. I often read many posts (many of which come from some Redditors who seem to be solely interested in Italian genetics or any group related to them) that claim that Italians (particularly Southerners but also Central Italians) are a mixed breed between Western Asia/Canaanite and the European region, with around 50-60% of their DNA coming from MENA areas (especially the Levant) this theme is always emphasized whenever a post concerns Italians in particular, and as regards Northern Italians it is the thesis is in vogue that they are a cross between Germanic/Central European invaders and a basic Roman population like the modern southern Italians (Sicilian or Calabrian), thus arguing that Italy was the site of mass immigration both from the Middle East and from Northern/Central Europe and replacing, sometimes completely, the entire local Italian population. I recently read this post coming from the "23ndme" subreddit, which unfortunately I can't load the image but here is the link:https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/s/xOezWtMpyH
and he says "what if 23ndme was more honest with Italian genetic results?" what I am therefore looking for is clarification for the general picture regarding the genetics of the Italian population precisely because the information changes a lot and often seems very reductive and inconsistent, and as mentioned I have not yet developed the right knowledge to talk about topics of archaeogenetics and population DNA, in contrast to a large number of Reddit users who seem (apparently) to be experts in this regard, but as said in the end it all turns out to be very vague and directed so im asking here because this is, for now, another place where the topic of genetics and DNA is discussed outside reddit

The idea that Italians are a mixed melting pot midway between central europeans and levantines/north africans is itself antiItalian propoganda spread by those who have a bone to pick with the Italian sense of identity and the idiots that are naive enough to believe them. More accurate is to say that Italians today are a cline between the genetic norms of Iron age Italics (North) and Magna Graecians (South).

Northern Italic genetics today reflect precisely those of the iron age Picenes long before any historic germanic or celtic migrations took place, meaning what you see is direct continuity over the course of 2.7 millenia. This will not only be limited to the Picenes but likely also include a large sum of northern Italic tribes as well such as the venetics, rhaetics etc. if we can continue to get studies on said populations. Similarly southern Italian genetic norms represent those of Greek Peloponesians and Islanders found in the era of the Trojan war. Greek like ancestry was transmitted and mediated through the Magna Graecian phenomenon of the iron age and eventually assimilated/latinized by the militarily dominant Roman and Oscan speaking Italics which conquered their city states. Emerging studies are showing an influx of greek ancestry from this precise time period into populations which otherwise used to look more archaic Italic like in southern Italy. We see it in pontecagnano and we see it again in the abstract of the Blanda study and of course this ancestry expands to become rather standard in Roman imperial era Latium and southern Tuscany. By late antiquity it is clear that a significant minority of the population of central italy is represented by Northern Italian migrants and today as a result the genetic norms of central Italy are effectively mid way between ancient Greek and ancient Northern Italic. Germanic, Egyptian and Levantine ancestry in Italy are going to be zero as these populations did not play a role here. Anatolian ancestry (which is quite different from levantine) may be notable as anatolian greeks were indeed part of the magna graecian phenomenon and at at least some of them were considered greeks, but this is not ancestry that is "exotic" compared the rest of Greece anyways, which had long been mixing with anatolian populations since the neolithic into the iron age.

To sum this up more concisely, Italians are a people who descend from ancient northern mediterranean populations which were found specifically between the Aegean and Po Valley. We are not some broad melting pot of the middle east and europe and you would do well not to trust anyone who claims this.

 

[Wisp]

L'idea che gli italiani siano un melting pot misto a metà strada tra centroeuropei e levantini/nordafricani è di per sé propaganda antiitaliana diffusa da coloro che hanno un conto in sospeso con il senso di identità italiano e dagli idioti che sono abbastanza ingenui da crederci. È più corretto dire che gli italiani di oggi sono una linea di confine tra le norme genetiche degli italici dell'età del ferro (Nord) e dei magnogreci (Sud).

La genetica italica settentrionale odierna riflette esattamente quella dei Piceni dell'età del ferro, molto prima che si verificassero migrazioni storiche germaniche o celtiche, il che significa che ciò che vedi è una continuità diretta nel corso di 2,7 millenni. Ciò non sarà limitato solo ai Piceni, ma probabilmente includerà anche una grande quantità di tribù italiche settentrionali come i veneti, i retici ecc. se potremo continuare a ottenere studi su tali popolazioni. Allo stesso modo, le norme genetiche dell'Italia meridionale rappresentano quelle dei Peloponnesi greci e degli isolani trovati nell'era della guerra di Troia. L'ascendenza greca fu trasmessa e mediata attraverso il fenomeno della Magna Grecia dell'età del ferro e alla fine assimilata/latinizzata dagli italici di lingua romana e osca militarmente dominanti che conquistarono le loro città-stato. Studi emergenti stanno mostrando un afflusso di ascendenza greca da questo preciso periodo di tempo in popolazioni che altrimenti sembravano più arcaiche come gli italici nell'Italia meridionale. Lo vediamo a Pontecagnano e lo vediamo di nuovo nell'abstract dello studio Blanda e naturalmente questa discendenza si espande fino a diventare piuttosto standard nel Lazio imperiale romano e nella Toscana meridionale. Nella tarda antichità è chiaro che una minoranza significativa della popolazione dell'Italia centrale è rappresentata da migranti dell'Italia settentrionale e oggi di conseguenza le norme genetiche dell'Italia centrale sono effettivamente a metà strada tra l'antico greco e l'antico italico settentrionale. L'ascendenza germanica, egiziana e levantina in Italia sarà pari a zero poiché queste popolazioni non hanno avuto un ruolo qui. L'ascendenza anatolica (che è piuttosto diversa da quella levantina) può essere notevole poiché i greci anatolici facevano effettivamente parte del fenomeno della magna Grecia e almeno alcuni di loro erano considerati greci, ma questa non è un'ascendenza "esotica" rispetto al resto della Grecia, che si era mescolata a lungo con le popolazioni anatoliche dal neolitico all'età del ferro.

Per riassumere in modo più conciso, gli italiani sono un popolo che discende da antiche popolazioni del Mediterraneo settentrionale che si trovavano specificamente tra l'Egeo e la Pianura Padana. Non siamo un vasto melting pot di Medio Oriente ed Europa e faresti bene a non fidarti di chiunque affermi questo.

this is the reason why I'm doing this thread, I've been part of those subreddits for a year now and I see a handful of users who, also looking at the log of their activity comments, seem only interested in classifying and making others understand how Italians are... not white Europeans but that Italy itself "is a bridge between the Levant and Europe" as read in some comments...obviously with many directions towards the phenotypic side. apart from some users in the past, no one ever seems to argue against those lies. there is a user, who has been on reddit for 3 years now, who will have written hundreds and hundreds of comments, in which one sentence was always repeated "southern Italians are 50-60% Middle Eastern and North African". the interesting thing is that all these users say they are Italian themselves, and often receive many positive votes. needless to say that this forum is a much better place than Reddit for genetics, I've been here for a few days and I see more competence and a better quality of discussion

 

[torzio]

The idea that Italians are a mixed melting pot midway between central europeans and levantines/north africans is itself antiItalian propoganda spread by those who have a bone to pick with the Italian sense of identity and the idiots that are naive enough to believe them. More accurate is to say that Italians today are a cline between the genetic norms of Iron age Italics (North) and Magna Graecians (South).

Northern Italic genetics today reflect precisely those of the iron age Picenes long before any historic germanic or celtic migrations took place, meaning what you see is direct continuity over the course of 2.7 millenia. This will not only be limited to the Picenes but likely also include a large sum of northern Italic tribes as well such as the venetics, rhaetics etc. if we can continue to get studies on said populations. Similarly southern Italian genetic norms represent those of Greek Peloponesians and Islanders found in the era of the Trojan war. Greek like ancestry was transmitted and mediated through the Magna Graecian phenomenon of the iron age and eventually assimilated/latinized by the militarily dominant Roman and Oscan speaking Italics which conquered their city states. Emerging studies are showing an influx of greek ancestry from this precise time period into populations which otherwise used to look more archaic Italic like in southern Italy. We see it in pontecagnano and we see it again in the abstract of the Blanda study and of course this ancestry expands to become rather standard in Roman imperial era Latium and southern Tuscany. By late antiquity it is clear that a significant minority of the population of central italy is represented by Northern Italian migrants and today as a result the genetic norms of central Italy are effectively mid way between ancient Greek and ancient Northern Italic. Germanic, Egyptian and Levantine ancestry in Italy are going to be zero as these populations did not play a role here. Anatolian ancestry (which is quite different from levantine) may be notable as anatolian greeks were indeed part of the magna graecian phenomenon and at at least some of them were considered greeks, but this is not ancestry that is "exotic" compared the rest of Greece anyways, which had long been mixing with anatolian populations since the neolithic into the iron age.

To sum this up more concisely, Italians are a people who descend from ancient northern mediterranean populations which were found specifically between the Aegean and Po Valley. We are not some broad melting pot of the middle east and europe and you would do well not to trust anyone who claims this.

Which Picene populace ?.............South Picene (sabellic speakers (Umbri )) or North Picene and their mix with Liburnians from bronze-age to 440BC , towns like martinscuro, Tronto and others

Veneti mixed with Celts from the north and Liburnians and Japodes ( liburnians in trade an Japodes as neighbours )

 

[Luso]

this is the reason why I'm doing this thread, I've been part of those subreddits for a year now and I see a handful of users who, also looking at the log of their activity comments, seem only interested in classifying and making others understand how Italians are... not white Europeans but that Italy itself "is a bridge between the Levant and Europe" as read in some comments...obviously with many directions towards the phenotypic side. apart from some users in the past, no one ever seems to argue against those lies. there is a user, who has been on reddit for 3 years now, who will have written hundreds and hundreds of comments, in which one sentence was always repeated "southern Italians are 50-60% Middle Eastern and North African". the interesting thing is that all these users say they are Italian themselves, and often receive many positive votes. needless to say that this forum is a much better place than Reddit for genetics, I've been here for a few days and I see more competence and a better quality of discussion

I'd suggest ignoring people on reddit and other online forums when it comes to opinions of "white" and whatever other pseudoscientific theories. In the grand scheme of things, who the hell cares what some online "troll" thinks of an ethnicity? If you want to gain actual insight on genetics and historical information on an ethnicity look at academic research and reputable historical writings.

 

[Vitruvius]

Which Picene populace ?.............South Picene (sabellic speakers (Umbri )) or North Picene and their mix with Liburnians from bronze-age to 440BC , towns like martinscuro, Tronto and others

Veneti mixed with Celts from the north and Liburnians and Japodes ( liburnians in trade an Japodes as neighbours )

Your assumptions that:

A: A distinct ethnic group called the Liburnians identifiably existed in the bronze age
B: The Picenes existed as a distinct ethnic group definable within other Italics in the bronze age
C: The Picenes necessarily mixed with this hypothetical separate bronze age Liburnian population in the bronze age
D: The Veneti were broadly mixing with Celts, Liburnians and Japodes in some unspecified time period

are unfounded.

I think what you are trying to get at is the idea that the proto Italics and proto Illyrians may descend from a common adriatic based macro substratum that at one point could have split during the bronze age, thus causing divergence between the two groups. This I think is very possible and I'd say even likely given the genetic data. That being said the Picenes and Veneti were not freely mixing across the adriatic and beyond the alps as some sort shared cultural horizon in the Iron age.

In my post I'm referring to Ravasini et al. 2024 which covers both the North and South Picenes. Both very clearly overlap directly with modern northern Italians, despite the samples all being taken prior any celtic and germanic invasions (The Germanic people would not even exist as a distinct ethnic group until ~200 years later) The North Picenes are much more numerous given the total sample size and of course make up the bulk of the data.

 

[Vitruvius]

this is the reason why I'm doing this thread, I've been part of those subreddits for a year now and I see a handful of users who, also looking at the log of their activity comments, seem only interested in classifying and making others understand how Italians are... not white Europeans but that Italy itself "is a bridge between the Levant and Europe" as read in some comments...obviously with many directions towards the phenotypic side. apart from some users in the past, no one ever seems to argue against those lies. there is a user, who has been on reddit for 3 years now, who will have written hundreds and hundreds of comments, in which one sentence was always repeated "southern Italians are 50-60% Middle Eastern and North African". the interesting thing is that all these users say they are Italian themselves, and often receive many positive votes. needless to say that this forum is a much better place than Reddit for genetics, I've been here for a few days and I see more competence and a better quality of discussion

In my experience most of these types who make these idiotic claims are not European nor Italians, themselves, but simply trolls from non european backgrounds. In the off chance they do have a European ancestral background they are often mixed race, such as Jews who are trying to normalize their middle eastern and European heritage or instead nordicists who are trying to live out some power fantasy of pretending that their ancestors built the ancient civilizations of Rome/Greece while denying the actual heirs of these civilizations their sense of historic identity. They are a collection of very pathetic people in truth.

Italians are very obviously on a genetic, cultural and linguistic level definitively European, and by extension white by classification in the anglosphere. They share the same ancestral origins as all other European ethnic groups, bearing the same exact genetic clines of ancestry that any other European descends from in their totality: Neolithic Anatolian, Neolithic Caucasian, Mesolithic Western Hunter Gatherer and Mesolithic Eastern Hunter Gatherer. The only aspects that make them genetically unique in this notion is the proportion of ancestry which was received from each grouping and the cultural contexts said ancestry was received in.

Calling Italians "North African" is simply a lie and calling them "Middle Eastern" is at best disingenuous as the term today refers to modern populations of the middle east and not Anatolian Farmers from which all europeans share a major source of ancestry from. If you want to figure out how much ancestry from colonization attempts from south of the Mediterranean affected the Italian genepool, I suggest you take a look at Monnereau et. al. 2024 which details a genetic study on moorish and later christian settlements in Segesta. There is a total discontinuity between the noticably N. African ingressed moors and the later Christians whose ancestry looks identical to modern Italians. Both Punic and Islamic settlements in the historic era were expelled and southern Italy's ancestry remains really only strongly affected by the Aegean Greek population movements.

 

[torzio]

Your assumptions that:

A: A distinct ethnic group called the Liburnians identifiably existed in the bronze age
B: The Picenes existed as a distinct ethnic group definable within other Italics in the bronze age
B: The Picenes necessarily mixed with this hypothetical separate bronze age Liburnian population in the bronze age
C: The Veneti were broadly mixing with Celts, Liburnians and Japodes in some unspecified time period

are unfounded.

I think what you are trying to get at is the idea that the proto Italics and proto Illyrians may descend from a common adriatic based macro substratum that at one point could have split during the bronze age, thus causing divergence between the two groups. This I think is very possible and I'd say even likely given the genetic data. That being said the Picenes and Veneti were not freely mixing across the adriatic and beyond the alps as some sort shared cultural horizon in the Iron age.

In my post I'm referring to Ravasini et al. 2024 which covers both the North and South Picenes. Both very clearly overlap directly with modern northern Italians, despite the samples all being taken prior any celtic and germanic invasions (The Germanic people would not even exist as a distinct ethnic group until ~200 years later) The North Picenes are much more numerous given the total sample size and of course make up the bulk of the data.
View attachment 16450View attachment 16449

All I can say is that you are wrong.................I already presented the link from archeologists from 2020 a year ago............and there is still ongoing digs now.

you views are too narrow if you think there was no contact between adriatic italy and the western balkans ......................I will ignore your findings

Across a Narrow Sea: Ancient Greeks and Romans in the Eastern Adriatic​

 

[Vitruvius]

All I can say is that you are wrong.................I already presented the link from archeologists from 2020 a year ago............and there is still ongoing digs now.

you views are too narrow if you think there was no contact between adriatic italy and the western balkans ......................I will ignore your findings

Across a Narrow Sea: Ancient Greeks and Romans in the Eastern Adriatic​

I never denied contact. The problem here is that you are unable to differentiate between contact and large scale population exchanges which are two very different events. Italics from all over northern Italy certainly had contact and established trade networks with Celts and Illyrians and nobody denies this. What I reject is that idea that there is any significant evidence to support the four suppositions you've vaguely and dogmatically put forth which I've previously listed.

 

[Wisp]

In my experience most of these types who make these idiotic claims are not European nor Italians, themselves, but simply trolls from non european backgrounds. In the off chance they do have a European ancestral background they are often mixed race, such as Jews who are trying to normalize their middle eastern and European heritage or instead nordicists who are trying to live out some power fantasy of pretending that their ancestors built the ancient civilizations of Rome/Greece while denying the actual heirs of these civilizations their sense of historic identity. They are a collection of very pathetic people in truth.

Italians are very obviously on a genetic, cultural and linguistic level definitively European, and by extension white by classification in the anglosphere. They share the same ancestral origins as all other European ethnic groups, bearing the same exact genetic clines of ancestry that any other European descends from in their totality: Neolithic Anatolian, Neolithic Caucasian, Mesolithic Western Hunter Gatherer and Mesolithic Eastern Hunter Gatherer. The only aspects that make them genetically unique in this notion is the proportion of ancestry which was received from each grouping and the cultural contexts said ancestry was received in.

Calling Italians "North African" is simply a lie and calling them "Middle Eastern" is at best disingenuous as the term today refers to modern populations of the middle east and not Anatolian Farmers from which all europeans share a major source of ancestry from. If you want to figure out how much ancestry from colonization attempts from south of the Mediterranean affected the Italian genepool, I suggest you take a look at Monnereau et. al. 2024 which details a genetic study on moorish and later christian settlements in Segesta. There is a total discontinuity between the noticably N. African ingressed moors and the later Christians whose ancestry looks identical to modern Italians. Both Punic and Islamic settlements in the historic era were expelled and southern Italy's ancestry remains really only strongly affected by the Aegean Greek population movements.

View attachment 16451

so how much reliable can this reddit post be?

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/s/qV6lLM5Br3

also today another Italian (Sicilian) result was posted and the comments are the usual clichés https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/s/6C3E8dtji7

 

[torzio]

I never denied contact. The problem here is that you are unable to differentiate between contact and large scale population exchanges which are two very different events. Italics from all over northern Italy certainly had contact and established trade networks with Celts and Illyrians and nobody denies this. What I reject is that idea that there is any significant evidence to support the four suppositions you've vaguely and dogmatically put forth which I've previously listed.

I still ignore your results because you do not acknowledge any paper stating cross adriatic migration .................Not even the 2021 paper when Daunians from modern Croatia migrated to Foggia area of Italy ....................these Daunians from what I gathered, came from Brac island

 

[torzio]

@Wisp

My paternal line has been in North East Italy for the past 500 plus years ( via written records )..............I get a different result as per your 23andme attachment

 

[torzio]

Origine e area di diffusione della civiltà dei piceni

 

[torzio]

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/liburni_(Enciclopedia-Italiana)/

https://www.capponieditore.it/prodotto/i-piceni-2

 

[Vitruvius]

I still ignore your results because you do not acknowledge any paper stating cross adriatic migration .................Not even the 2021 paper when Daunians from modern Croatia migrated to Foggia area of Italy ....................these Daunians from what I gathered, came from Brac island

The topic of the Daunians have nothing to do with the four unfounded dogmatic statements regarding the Liburnians, Veneti, Celts and Picenes you put forth. The Daunii inhabited Italy for a time, but like the moors and punics they do not show genetic continuity with the local apulian populace today. The population which currently does are LBA Greeks along with Imperial Romans from Latium and southern Tuscany.

I really tire of those who pretend that every native Italic tribe like the Picenes are secretly foreigners who migrated from illyrian or celtic lands simply because they traded with said cultures. The Picene material culture descends from the appenine and protovillanovan culture which are definitively and speficially only Italic cultures. Like with the Italic Etruscans we also find occasional objects from egypt, syria and anatolia amongst Picene goods starting in the 7th century along with that of illyria, but the genetics do not shift or change here to reflect influence from any of these exotic populations. There is zero evidence of any mass liburnian colonization of the Picenes.

 

[Vitruvius]

so how much reliable can this reddit post be?

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/s/qV6lLM5Br3

also today another Italian (Sicilian) result was posted and the comments are the usual clichés https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/s/6C3E8dtji7

23&me results? Rather unreliable. If you want to get a picture of who the Italian people really descend from you need to start looking at aDNA papers, which study the populations that lived in Italy in the past and their natural progression in terms of genetic dominance or genetic elimination. As I have said, several populations which used to live in ancient Italy no longer exist, such as the punics, moors and Daunii. Others such as Picenes showed an identical genetic structure to northern Italians today, indicating such ancestry was prevalent in many areas of ancient northern Italy that have yet to be sampled.

 

[Wisp]

23&me results? Rather unreliable. If you want to get a picture of who the Italian people really descend from you need to start looking at aDNA papers, which study the populations that lived in Italy in the past and their natural progression in terms of genetic dominance or genetic elimination. As I have said, several populations which used to live in ancient Italy no longer exist, such as the punics, moors and Daunii. Others such as Picenes showed an identical genetic structure to northern Italians today, indicating such ancestry was prevalent in many areas of ancient northern Italy that have yet to be sampled.

It seems this way to me too, but many prefer to explain the composition of the historical DNA of Italians and the genetic barriers present between the various areas of Italy with the genetic contribution deriving from intense migratory movements at different times in the last 2500/3000 years both from Central Europe and from the Middle East/Western Asia (of which the most part is Anatolian) justifying this with all the trade and general historical periods, as in the case of the post in question where the southern Italians are mostly Anatolian and <10% levantine + 10% french and german, the greek one is only 5%. In central italy the french/ German is more than <20%, 40% anatolian and 10% levantine. obviously the names of these categories do not faithfully reflect the actual source used for them, so in addition to the general misinformation on the distribution and division of the categories, the post proposes a distorted vision of the genetics of Italians in my opinion

 

[torzio]

pointless trying to find ancient italian when adding imperial roman times and AD times.........stay on bronze-age to republian roman times

waste of time adding moors, arabs, norman, lombards, ostrogoths etc etc