Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

So, Yamnaya is indeed R1b and R1a is probably forest steppe. No wonder they waffled and said that Corded Ware was 75% of a population "related" to Yamnaya. Not only that, but Yamnaya is R1b M-269. The Samara hunter gatherer is earlier R1b. That's more of a surprise.

What's really interesting is that at the same time they have found an R1b1 among early Neolithic samples from Spain. If M-269 is on the steppe then is "modern" European R1b Yamnaya derived and the R1b1 from Spain was a dead end?

Did R1b really have that big a range, or did the earliest clades just straddle the whole Caucasus area, and so some of it got picked up in the Neolithic migrations?

A related question is what's the source of the "Near Eastern" ancestry?

I better get back to reading. Just wanted to give everybody a head's up, although Motzart beat me to it.
 
The R1b in the Yamnaya is all Z2103, not ancestral to Western European R1b. That means R1b spread into Europe PRIOR the existence of the Yamnaya. So many people were right and yet so wrong, credit to Maciamo for getting the routes and the geography right, but he was so far off on the dates.
 
Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe (Haak et al. 2015 preprint)

I don't know people are discussing this already on other threads, but whatever I think it's start to start a thread dedicated to it. I'v skimmed through it and I can already see there are a lot of surprising Y DNA. Such as R1b1 from Neolithic Spain, R*(xdeep R1b and R1a clades) from Neolithic Germany, all Mesolithic Russians had R1a and R1b, all Y DNA from Yamna is R1b-L23(mostly Z2103 not western L51), derived I2a1b clades all over Neolithic Europe, and T1a from Neolithic Europe.

I have not looked at the Y SNP calls of samples yet. It appears the origin of R1b-L11 and R1a-Z282 the most popular paternal lineages in Europe today, are begging to be resolved with ancient Y DNA.

I like seeing my own lineage and the lineage of over 50% of modern west Europeans R1b-P312 in Bell Beaker Germany 4,5000YBP.

A big congrats to Maciamo and others for predicting R1b-M269 existed in Yamna some 5-10 years ago. It must feel good to finally be confirmed by ancient Y DNA, after debating for so long.
 
I always wondered why ....If R1a and R1b are the same age , why is western european heavily R1b and eastern europe R1a .........clearly R1b was settling europe and r1a was lollying around in the steppe.

what about T1a in Karsdorf...........now that a turnup
 
Thanks, looks like we are going to have some fun now. I read it tomorrow.
 
I couldn't resist, so I stayed longer to check the paper. Massive amount of information to consume, I must say. Guys were working hard, but I'm a little disappointed I must say. I was afraid that all the Yamnaya samples might be from one place, and I was a prophet unfortunately. All sample are from Samara region which is located North of Caspian Sea. It is pretty much North East corner of Yamnaya horizon. This doesn't help to have a gemeral picture of Yamnaya genetics. Just a little sliver of a vast culture.
My next complaint is about not testing Neolithic farmer population south of Yamnaya. We know these farmers had direct and meaningful genetic effect on Yamnaya, so it baffles me why there is not even one sample from Cucuteni and Varna, or South of Caucasus?
I hope that this paper will be more interesting that the first impression. I'm going to bed.
See you tomorrow.
 
LeBrok said:
Thanks, looks like we are going to have some fun now. I read it tomorrow.
Click to expand...

It looks like me and you being Euro R1bs trace our paternal lineage to the bronze age Russian steppe. Something like 40% of Europeans, 20% of west Asians, and 30% of Indians probably trace their father line back to the bronze age Russian steppe. They're the most successful fathers in history.
 
The ADMIXTURE graph is very odd. Maybe I don't understand well how ADMIXTURE works but at K=20 all WHG seems to disappear from current day European population and looks like being replaced by Yamnaya/EHG ancestry. That, we can proof is wrong. You see, all LN cultures that followed Corded Ware, in other words that followed the Yamnaya invasion, had substantial amount of the WHG (it's the grey part, which make up 100% of Swedish HG and also La Brana). So how could part not pop up in current day Europeans?

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2015/02/10/013433.DC1/013433-1.pdf


EDIT: Furthermore, Stuttgart is very odd in K=20. She has mostly EHG/Yamnaya admixture and a tad Caucasian.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
They're the most successful fathers in history.
Click to expand...

:thinking:I wonder if the mothers have anything to do with it? procreating can be fun, the hard work comes later probably assigned to the female species in many different forms
 
motzart said:
5000 B.C. R1b1 in Spain. I think this is rewriting everything. All of the Yamnaya R1b.
Click to expand...

R1b1* could either be R1b-P25 or R1b-V88. Both are unrelated to Yamnaya. It was tested for V35 and V69, but not for V88.

If it is R1b-P25 then it would certainly be a remnant of the Mesolithic population. Nowadays R1b-P25 makes up about 1% of the male lineages in western Europe.

If it is R1b-V88, it would have come from North African Neolithic cattle herders, as I explained many times on the forum and in my Genetic history of Iberia.
 
epoch said:
The ADMIXTURE graph is very odd. Maybe I don't understand well how ADMIXTURE works but at K=20 all WHG seems to disappear from current day European population and looks like being replaced by Yamnaya/EHG ancestry. That, we can proof is wrong. You see, all LN cultures that followed Corded Ware, in other words that followed the Yamnaya invasion, had substantial amount of the WHG (it's the grey part, which make up 100% of Swedish HG and also La Brana). So how could part not pop up in current day Europeans?

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2015/02/10/013433.DC1/013433-1.pdf


EDIT: Furthermore, Stuttgart is very odd in K=20. She has mostly EHG/Yamnaya admixture and a tad Caucasian.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that only a few individuals were tested and they may not be representative of the whole population of a region at the time. Actually if Yamna people moved to central Europe, chances are that many of them remained ethnically separate from the conquered population, a bit like the Indo-Aryans did in India with the caste system. After all both were Bronze Age Indo-Europeans with a similar language and religion, so they must have also shared similar practices with conquered populations. This means that R1b or R1a "upper castes" from the Corded Ware or Unetice may have been pure Yamna. It's only after several millennia of intermixing with indigenous populations that the modern European admixtures appeared. Apparently the elite remained ethnically distinct in central Europe until the Urnfield period (1300-1200 BCE), when some sort of major cultural upheaval took place (e.g. IE funerary practices introduced cremation for the first time).
 
I had a quick look at the paper and I am glad to see that a T1a individual was found in the LBK culture, confirming what I had said for years : the Near Eastern Neolithic farmers were predominantly G2a but with J1 and T1a minorities (+ R1b-V88 in North Africa and Iberia).

The biggest surprise so far is that 4 out of 6 Yamna men tested belonged to the Balkano-Anatolian R1b-Z2103 (the other two were P297 and L23). This may simply be because they are all from the Volga-Ural region. They would therefore have been among the last to move to the Balkans. In contrast, western Yamna people from southern Ukraine would have been the first to move out of the steppe, and that should in theory be where the ancestors of modern Western Europeans came from.

Here is a table showing the mtDNA of the six R1b Yamna men.

[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Sample
[/TD]
[TD]Y-haplogroup
[/TD]
[TD]Mt-haplogroup
[/TD]
[TD]Location
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I0370[/TD]
[TD]R1b-Z2103[/TD]
[TD]H13a1a1[/TD]
[TD]Ishkinovka, Orenburg[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I0429[/TD]
[TD]R1b-Z2103[/TD]
[TD]T2c1a2[/TD]
[TD]Lopatino, Samara[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I0438[/TD]
[TD]R1b-Z2103[/TD]
[TD]U5a1a1[/TD]
[TD]Luzhki, Samara[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I0439[/TD]
[TD]R1b-P297[/TD]
[TD]U5a1a1[/TD]
[TD]Lopatino, Samara[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I0443[/TD]
[TD]R1b-L23[/TD]
[TD]W3a1a[/TD]
[TD]Lopatino, Samara[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I0444[/TD]
[TD]R1b-Z2103[/TD]
[TD]H6a1b[/TD]
[TD]Kutuluk, Samara[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Female Yamna samples belonged to H2b, K1b2a, U4a1 and W6c.

I had specifically associated H6, U4a1, U5a1a1, W3 and W6 as being of Indo-European origin.
 
Anyone notice Yamna, Corded ware, Bell Beaker, and Unetice are clustering on PCAs exactly where I and others at Eurogenes expeted? Also, notice WHG is needed to explain modern Europeans not Yamna+EEF, which is also what we have been saying for months.
 
Maciamo said:
Keep in mind that only a few individuals were tested and they may not be representative of the whole population of a region at the time. Actually if Yamna people moved to central Europe, chances are that many of them remained ethnically separate from the conquered population, a bit like the Indo-Aryans did in India with the caste system. After all both were Bronze Age Indo-Europeans with a similar language and religion, so they must have also shared similar practices with conquered populations. This means that R1b or R1a "upper castes" from the Corded Ware or Unetice may have been pure Yamna. It's only after several millennia of intermixing with indigenous populations that the modern European admixtures appeared. Apparently the elite remained ethnically distinct in central Europe until the Urnfield period (1300-1200 BCE), when some sort of major cultural upheaval took place (e.g. IE funerary practices introduced cremation for the first time).
Click to expand...

But that's not the issue I refer to. The issue is that *current day*, modern, Europeans show *no WHG at all* in K=20, when WHG become a separate instance (Grey). All modern examples only show dark blue, which is a large part of Yamnaya and half of EHG. I simply don't get that and it defies what the article said, that European are half EEF/WHG mix combined with half Yamnaya.

Where is my grey in the Basques, the English and ze Germans?
 
Fire Haired14 said:
Anyone notice Yamna, Corded ware, Bell Beaker, and Unetice are clustering on PCAs exactly where I and others at Eurogenes expeted? Also, notice WHG is needed to explain modern Europeans not Yamna+EEF, which is also what we have been saying for months.
Click to expand...

Did you predict that Yamna and Corded Ware would cluster closest to the Mordovians ? It makes sense since the Mordovians have one of the highest incidence of red hair and I always sustained that genes of red hair were brought by R1b people (and blond hair by R1a people).

Unetice clusters especially well with Ukrainians, Hungarians and Czechs. That's the supposed geographic route followed by R1b Yamna tribes from Ukraine to central Europe.
 
epoch said:
But that's not the issue I refer to. The issue is that *current day*, modern, Europeans show *no WHG at all* in K=20, when WHG become a separate instance (Grey). All modern examples only show dark blue, which is a large part of Yamnaya and half of EHG. I simply don't get that and it defies what the article said, that European are half EEF/WHG mix combined with half Yamnaya.

Where is my grey in the Basques, the English and ze Germans?
Click to expand...

Unless there is a mistake in the K=20 data, it means that all the WHG (like in Motala and La Brana) has now become extinct in modern Europeans (who are a mix of Yamna and EEF).

What is odd is that from K=16 to K=19 Yamna looks half EHG (deep blue) and half Caucasian-Gedrosian (greyish green), but in K=20 Yamna suddenly becomes 80% EHG (sometimes with some WHG) and only 20% Caucasian-Gedrosian.
 
These are very strange results. I certainly wasn't expecting the Samara results to be all R1b. And yet they seem to be the wrong subclade to be ancestral to most of the R1b in western Europe. Some very strange conclusions by the authors, I would say.
 
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