Map of J2b and it's two major clades

[Demetrios]

Rethink what idiot? The Romans of the new Rome were Greeks and native Anatolians (descendants of the Hittites), among other people. They would be very familiar with this symbol. What you show is one of the many dozens shield patterns which doesn't even show a double-headed eagle. And you tell me to rethink it. I show you an actual double-headed eagle and explain to you based on common knowledge that it began from Assyria, moved to Anatolia, and entered Byzantium or New Rome or Eastern Roman Empire or Romania. Plain as that. Then from then on Greeks, Russians, Prussians/Germans, Serbians, Albanians, Montenegrins, and even Turks adopted it, among others.

 

[Demetrios]

I did not say tholos I said shaft, from tumulus to Shaft is a hard transition, as for when I read Lazaridis from Kavala, look it up on Mycenaean thread. Even for Lazaridis is difficult to bridge Yamnaya with Mycenaean.

And again

The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.


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Are you serious? You claim to have studied the aforementioned genetic study and you are now suggesting that Mycenaeans descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE? Accept the simple proven fact that Mycenaens only inherited a 4-16% from a Steppe related source, which could have after all had come even from Anatolia via Armenia. Even the study suggests that. But regardless of that, it has already been shown in other papers that the Aegean had close contacts with the Caucasus region even from the early Minoan times, and Caucasus metallurgical skills greatly enhanced Aegean metallurgical skills. Even from the time of Maykop. Greek mythology also gives hints to that.

Second, even for the shaft tombs, Yamnayans had Kurgans with mostly chamber tombs not shaft tombs, like in the Mycenaean culture. And by the way, you seem to be suggesting that shaft tombs was an Indo-European thing, which personally i have no problem accepting, but they have been found all over the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaft_tomb

Last, i don't know what are you trying to say with all these. You keep making hollow arguments without any meaning. Regardless of material cultural influence onto the Mycenaeans by an external source, Mycenaeans were by far and large indigenous in the Aegean with only some 4-16% dilution of the original ancestry that they also shared with the Minoans on Crete.

 

[blevins13]

Are you serious? You claim to have studied the aforementioned genetic study and you are now suggesting that Mycenaeans descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE? Accept the simple proven fact that Mycenaens only inherited a 4-16% from a Steppe related source, which could have after all had come even from Anatolia via Armenia. Even the study suggests that. But regardless of that, it has already been shown in other papers that the Aegean had close contacts with the Caucasus region even from the early Minoan times, and Caucasus metallurgical skills greatly enhanced Aegean metallurgical skills. Even from the time of Maykop. Greek mythology also gives hints to that.

Second, even for the shaft tombs, Yamnayans had Kurgans with mostly chamber tombs not shaft tombs, like in the Mycenaean culture. And by the way, you seem to be suggesting that shaft tombs was an Indo-European thing, which personally i have no problem accepting, but they have been found all over the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaft_tomb

Last, i don't know what are you trying to say with all these. You keep making hollow arguments without any meaning. Regardless of material cultural influence onto the Mycenaeans by an external source, Mycenaeans were by far and large indigenous in the Aegean with only some 4-16% dilution of the original ancestry that they also shared with the Minoans on Crete.

I am saying that shaft tombs of Mycenaean have nothing to do with tumulus tombs in western Balkans. Tumulus tombs in Balkan are related to Yamnaya Culture.


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[blevins13]

Rethink what idiot? The Romans of the new Rome were Greeks and native Anatolians (descendants of the Hittites), among other people. They would be very familiar with this symbol. What you show is one of the many dozens shield patterns which doesn't even show a double-headed eagle. And you tell me to rethink it. I show you an actual double-headed eagle and explain to you based on common knowledge that it began from Assyria, moved to Anatolia, and entered Byzantium or New Rome or Eastern Roman Empire or Romania. Plain as that. Then from then on Greeks, Russians, Prussians/Germans, Serbians, Albanians, Montenegrins, and even Turks adopted it, among others.

Roman had an single headed Eagle but after invading Anatolia they are amazed by the double headed one that they sow in a stone.
Ridiculous. And let’s not forget that the Roman were in Anatolia after more than 1000 years of Hittes collapse.

I invite the moderator to moderate language here.




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[Yetos]

wow
Blevins13 strikes again

After his disapontment that he is not Mycenean,

After his yelding parenthesis that Myceneans were hg Ydna N1 and Finno-Ugric

still strikes again,

No matter the answer is given to him many times,
he still yelds about a fail effort of someone in a blog,
that he trust surely,

No matter the answer is given him many times,

https://www.academia.edu/1040916/Gi..._2013_Award_of_the_Greek_Academy_of_Sciences_

yet even after this he will come back and tell us that Myceneans are Seima Turbino, so Fino-Ugric Siberians, so Ydna N1

PERHAPS Blevins never read about the Trialleti culture.
How typical of the ultras

Blevins13 to you
Greece might have more tumulus than whole Illyricum

click to enlarge



Blevins13 Tumuli density, in Greece
the more Mycenean, the higher density of tumulus

click to enlarge


wow lets compare this above, with Mycenean world,

WOW tumuli density follows the Mycenean dwelling density

Blevins13, stop watching Mema, top channel and read stupid blogs and forums,
you have bombard us a lot, with this crap, of Seima-Turbino, taiga, Ydna N1, Fino-Ugric Myceneans
and the tumuli is Albanian and only Albanian,

Pathetic

 

[Demetrios]

Mycenaeans didn't have tumulus tombs, they had beehive tholos tombs, just like in southern Crete and some pre-IE Spanish cultures.

You seem to lose the point. The point is that single headed eagle is not double-headed eagle. And it only began re-emerging as a symbol during the Byzantine era or Eastern Roman era. There hasn't been any depiction of it in Illyrian antiquity.

 

[blevins13]

wow
Blevins13 strikes again

After his disapontment that he is not Mycenean,

After his yelding parenthesis that Myceneans were hg Ydna N1 and Finno-Ugric

still strikes again,

No matter the answer is given to him many times,
he still yelds about a fail effort of someone in a blog,
that he trust surely,

No matter the answer is given him many times,

https://www.academia.edu/1040916/Gi..._2013_Award_of_the_Greek_Academy_of_Sciences_

yet even after this he will come back and tell us that Myceneans are Seima Turbino, so Fino-Ugric Siberians, so Ydna N1

PERHAPS Blevins never read about the Trialleti culture.
How typical of the ultras

Blevins13 to you
Greece might have more tumulus than whole Illyricum

click to enlarge
View attachment 11071


Blevins13 Tumuli density, in Greece
the more Mycenean, the higher density of tumulus

click to enlarge
View attachment 11072

wow lets compare this above, with Mycenean world,

WOW tumuli density follows the Mycenean dwelling density

Blevins13, stop watching Mema, top channel and read stupid blogs and forums,
you have bombard us a lot, with this crap, of Seima-Turbino, taiga, Ydna N1, Fino-Ugric Myceneans
and the tumuli is Albanian and only Albanian,

Pathetic

I never said is Albanian, I am saying is not Mycenaean.


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[blevins13]

Mycenaeans didn't have tumulus tombs, they had beehive tholos tombs, just like in southern Crete and some pre-IE Spanish cultures.

You seem to lose the point. The point is that single headed eagle is not double-headed eagle. And it only began re-emerging as a symbol during the Byzantine era or Eastern Roman era. There hasn't been any depiction of it in Illyrian antiquity.

No point is lost here...my claim is the the Roman Single header transformed in the Double Headed used in Constandinopoje, you claim they got it from Hitties from 2000 years ago before Bronze Age collapse.


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[blevins13]

wow
Blevins13 strikes again

After his disapontment that he is not Mycenean,

After his yelding parenthesis that Myceneans were hg Ydna N1 and Finno-Ugric

still strikes again,

No matter the answer is given to him many times,
he still yelds about a fail effort of someone in a blog,
that he trust surely,

No matter the answer is given him many times,

https://www.academia.edu/1040916/Gi..._2013_Award_of_the_Greek_Academy_of_Sciences_

yet even after this he will come back and tell us that Myceneans are Seima Turbino, so Fino-Ugric Siberians, so Ydna N1

PERHAPS Blevins never read about the Trialleti culture.
How typical of the ultras

Blevins13 to you
Greece might have more tumulus than whole Illyricum

click to enlarge
View attachment 11071


Blevins13 Tumuli density, in Greece
the more Mycenean, the higher density of tumulus

click to enlarge
View attachment 11072

wow lets compare this above, with Mycenean world,

WOW tumuli density follows the Mycenean dwelling density

Blevins13, stop watching Mema, top channel and read stupid blogs and forums,
you have bombard us a lot, with this crap, of Seima-Turbino, taiga, Ydna N1, Fino-Ugric Myceneans
and the tumuli is Albanian and only Albanian,

Pathetic

Show us research saying that Mycenaean used tumulus burials or that shaft graves were tumulus burials ?


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[Yetos]

I never said is Albanian, I am saying is not Mycenaean.


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Blevins 13 after bomberding with crap work all the forum,
now you deny this

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
Nicholas G. L. Hammond

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.


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man
you are spaming what ever,

You are so blind by your hate,
that deny even to see that Myceneans have more tumuli than Epirus and Makedonia,
and still bomb us with shit and crap.

Man simply look the tumuli of Myceneans.
Just click to enlarge



there are more tumuli in Mycanae than in Makedonia and Epirus,


JUST LOOK WHAT YOU SAY

Tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of Illyrians) in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...acedonia-Greece.pdf?origin=publication_detail


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Read the article....Middle to late Bronze Age (1620-1500 B.C) tumulus burial before Mycenaean expansion.... In my opinion tumulus burial in general are related to Illyrians in Macedonia and Epirus during middle and late Bronze Age. So what petrifies you here ?

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Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture) vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.

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I don't forget anything......just to clarify Members of this Forum.

For many years Greek archeology has tried to establish a connection between Tumulus burials (Kurgan Culture) and Mycenaean Culure.
But according to The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World, David W Anthony and https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceMycenae.htm

"The Mycenaeans were West Indo-Europeans, part of a much greater expansion and migration of Indo-Europeans (IEs) from the northern shores of the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. A general consensus of scholarly opinion was that they migrated into Eastern Europe from the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the period between 3300-2600 BC. After having left the main westwards migration of proto-IE around 2500 BC, they gradually blended into the indigenous population in the lower Balkans (the Pelasgians) between then and 2000 BC. However, in recent years that idea has undergone some refinement.
Clearly the Mycenaeans were part of an imported steppe culture. But the close relationship between Mycenaean and proto-Indo-Iranian languages shows that these two branches divided fairly late, sometime between 2500-2000 BC. Archaeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities to the Seima-Turbino culture (between about 1900-1600 BC) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites have been found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaeans descended from the steppe into Greece between 1900-1650 BC, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new, unique Greek culture. Naturally, as the new dominant force in the region, their language would also have dominated. The locals had gained between 62% and 86% of their DNA from people who had introduced farming from Anatolia as part of 'Old Europe'. They would have adopted this language fairly quickly and, if not them, then their children or grandchildren would have, which is why modern Greek expresses its IE origins so clearly. However, the IE influence on DNA in Greece was more subtle than across much of Europe, showing that these Mycenaean IEs arriving in Greece were less in number than some of their IE cousins.

The new proto-Greek speakers covered a swathe of territory that reached as far north as Epirus. They emerged into the archaeological record rather suddenly, with the appearance of shaft grave royal burials around 1650 BC. but, whilst the first city states had emerged by 1600 BC (the same time at which Mycenaean culture also appears on Cyprus), the Mycenaeans did not form one nation state. Instead they banded their independent city states together under one leader in times of trouble. During their own time they were known primarily as Achaeans, after the Achaea region of Greece."

So there is no relation between tumulus burials and Proto-Greeks, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus. The Mycenaeanization of Macedonia (close to Mount Olympus) started later as stated in this research.
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._the_late_Bronze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece


And it seems that while gathering this info I might have had a brain stroke according to Yetos with illuminating effects.

P.S.It is so fun to see Yetos Bouncing around like a wind-up toy just to deny the obvious, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus.Have a good day.

TO End
Your opinion seems not be an OXYMORON, BUT JUST A MORON.

1) Tumuli is a method of Albanian,
2) at 1500 BC there were not Greeks in Epirus and Makedonia, so Tumuli is Illyrian-Albanian mark in mt Olymp Makedonia
3) Myceneans were Seima Turbino so N1 YDna, Fino-Ugric speakers, so Kurgans no Tumuli,
BUT

Myceneans have more tumuli than Makedonian and Epirus,
Now What 1? the tumuli of Olymp Epirus and Makedonia are Illyrian-Albanian, and the tumuli of Myceneans are not?
Now What 2? Myceneans were Illyrians-Albanians and not Seima-Turbino as you claim? :useless: :useless: :useless:
Now What 3? Maybe Seima-Turbino N1 Fino-Ugric had tumuli?
Now What 4? to go your claims more far, Maybe Illyrians-Albanians were lets say Tumuli Seima Turbino culture ?

not only pathetic but a mind equation of a moron, only a paranoia can explain your posts,
direct and open,

Here I must ask an apology from the descent Albanian members of forum,
but 2-3 Albanian guys here are .... the nerve, just moron logic.
chewing paranoia gum

 

[blevins13]

Blevins 13 after bomberding with crap work all the forum,
now you deny this



man
you are spaming what ever,

You are so blind by your hate,
that deny even to see that Myceneans have more tumuli than Epirus and Makedonia,
and still bomb us with shit and crap.

Man simply look the tumuli of Myceneans.
Just click to enlarge

View attachment 11073

there are more tumuli in Mycanae than in Makedonia and Epirus,


JUST LOOK WHAT YOU SAY











TO End
Your opinion seems not be an OXYMORON, BUT JUST A MORON.

1) Tumuli is a method of Albanian,
2) at 1500 BC there were not Greeks in Epirus and Makedonia, so Tumuli is Illyrian-Albanian mark in mt Olymp Makedonia
3) Myceneans were Seima Turbino so N1 YDna, Fino-Ugric speakers, so Kurgans no Tumuli,
BUT

Myceneans have more tumuli than Makedonian and Epirus,
Now What 1? the tumuli of Olymp Epirus and Makedonia are Illyrian-Albanian, and the tumuli of Myceneans are not?
Now What 2? Myceneans were Illyrians-Albanians and not Seima-Turbino as you claim? :useless: :useless: :useless:
Now What 3? Maybe Seima-Turbino N1 Fino-Ugric had tumuli?
Now What 4? to go your claims more far, Maybe Illyrians-Albanians were lets say Tumuli Seima Turbino culture ?

not only pathetic but a mind equation of a moron, only a paranoia can explain your posts,
direct and open,

Here I must ask an apology from the descent Albanian members of forum,
but 2-3 Albanian guys here are .... the nerve, just moron logic.
chewing paranoia gum

There is no hate here just search for truth

I can’t neither deny not even confirm this because is not mine but

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.


Also this one is not mine either so can’t deny that, I find truths in this.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

The Greek branch

Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

Also here shaft graves are unlikely to be tumulus

https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3482


And here it says that tumulus burial are rare in Greek mainland during Bronze Age.

https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3479

So either these guys are crazy and you are right or the other way around.

Members My only passion is truth, so for the sake of it let’s keep the intellectual exchange here based on academic papers.




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[Fatherland]

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.

Basically sums up the whole thing. Mycenaeans did not practice Tumulus burials, it was indeed more of a Illyric-Doric practice, practiced by the ancestors of the Albanians, and Achilles. One can find Tumulus everywhere in Albania.

Yetos, seek mental help, you're going insane.

 

[Demetrios]

Yes, we had a lot of such tombs, but built as beehives tholoi, which are in fact identical to the ones of southern Crete from the 3rd millenium BCE. Dorians had different burial practices to Mycenaeans, but they were also Greeks.

 

[Demetrios]

No point is lost here...my claim is the the Roman Single header transformed in the Double Headed used in Constandinopoje, you claim they got it from Hitties from 2000 years ago before Bronze Age collapse.


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No, i am saying that, it was obviously still used in Anatolia, and Byzantines simply got it from them. You are the one who is inconsistent. The question is not really how it reemerged, but how it ended up in Albania, and we all know it got there from Byzantine influence just like it did in most other European countries. Bronze Age collapse has nothing to do with that. The symbols are symbols and the depiction i showed you was also seen by native Anatolians back then.

 

[blevins13]

No, i am saying that, it was obviously still used in Anatolia, and Byzantines simply got it from them. You are the one who is inconsistent. The question is not really how it reemerged, but how it ended up in Albania, and we all know it got there from Byzantine influence just like it did in most other European countries. Bronze Age collapse has nothing to do with that. The symbols are symbols and the depiction i showed you was also seen by native Anatolians back then.

Again the Hittites Double headed Eagle was lost during Bronze Age collapse.
The Single headed Roman Eagle emerged after.
The Romans ruled for more than 2000 years but they needed copy the Hittites Eagle in Anatolia, because there was still in use.
This scenario is very improbable, do you have any academic reference for that.

Not Greek ones.
This is comply off topic, open a new thread for this.




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[Demetrios]

Again the Hittites Double headed Eagle was lost during Bronze Age collapse.
The Single headed Roman Eagle emerged after.
The Romans ruled for more than 2000 years but they needed copy the Hittites Eagle in Anatolia, because there was still in use.
This scenario is very improbable, do you have any academic reference for that.

Not Greek ones.
This is comply off topic, open a new thread for this.

View attachment 11082


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I still don't understand what you are trying to prove or say. The Roman eagle has nothing to do with the double-headed eagle which is an eastern symbol. As for the single-headed eagle it was a very widespread symbol, many cultures had it, not just the Romans. Even the Persians had it, let alone the Greeks, and many others.

Standard of Cyrus the Great (founder of the first Persian Empire)

 

[Demetrios]

Again the Hittites Double headed Eagle was lost during Bronze Age collapse.
The Single headed Roman Eagle emerged after.
The Romans ruled for more than 2000 years but they needed copy the Hittites Eagle in Anatolia, because there was still in use.
This scenario is very improbable, do you have any academic reference for that.

Not Greek ones.
This is comply off topic, open a new thread for this.

View attachment 11082


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Read the "Middle Ages" and "Byzantine Empire" paragraphs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle#Middle_Ages

 

[blevins13]

Read the "Middle Ages" and "Byzantine Empire" paragraphs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle#Middle_Ages

Even after the adoption of Christianity as the Roman Empire's religion, the Aquila eagle continued to be used as a symbol. During the reign of Eastern Roman Emperor Isaac I Komnenos, the single-headed eagle was modified to double-headed to symbolise the Empire's dominance over East and West.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquila_(Roman)

I see your point, but to me this makes more sense.....continuity of the same symbol than coping the Anatolian Hittites Eagle.


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[Demetrios]

Even after the adoption of Christianity as the Roman Empire's religion, the Aquila eagle continued to be used as a symbol. During the reign of Eastern Roman Emperor Isaac I Komnenos, the single-headed eagle was modified to double-headed to symbolise the Empire's dominance over East and West.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquila_(Roman)

I see your point, but to me this makes more sense.....continuity of the same symbol than coping the Anatolian Hittites Eagle.


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I am not per se claiming that the Byzantine or Eastern Roman Empire initially used the double-headed eagle. Of course it continued to use the original Roman eagle. I simply say that the double-headed eagle most likely re-emerged in the Byzantine Empire during the 10-11th century AD and then it influenced all the others who eventually adopted it. The list is long.

 

[Dema]

This thread is from 2013, everything said about J2-M205 is wrong, including map of M205.




Like:

Very interesting, thanks BakodiP. I just wonder if M205 shows Bulgar or Turkic connection from north of Caspian Sea to Balkans?

No there is no connection. J2-M205 spread thru Mediterranean in various clades which are distant up to 6000 years one from another. And Bulgaria neither Turkey have no connection to these clades, these clades spread most likely with ancient sea travellers.

For example only among Albanias we have 4 clades that separated 6000 years one from another. Furthermore main Balkan clade Y22059 has closest brother clades and matches in Palestine, Qatar, France, Sardinia, England and so on, with difference up to 6000 years.