Map of J2b and it's two major clades

[RHAS]

View attachment 5851I can't explain it easier! :Shttp://i45.tinypic.com/14sfp3.jpg

"The contribution of the Central Asian genetics to the modern Turkish people has been debated and become the subject of several studies. As a result, several studies have concluded that the historical (pre-Islamic) and indigenous Anatolian groups are the primary source of the present-day Turkish population, in addition to neighboring peoples, such as Balkan peoples, and central Asian Turkic people."
Genetic history of the Turkish people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Turkish_people

 

[Maciamo]

Just a little update to say that Eupedia now has its own J2b map.

 

[LeBrok]

How can we explain the vast empty spot in Anatolia, between hotspots of Balkans and Kurd's land? South Italy looks little suspicious too.

 

[Ike]

What's the subclade of Caucasian Avars? Wiki says they are 72 % J group?

 

[adamo]

The world's highest J2b frequencies are 14% of Albanians, 10% of north-central Italians, 8% of Pakistan's Hunza people, and then 6.5% of Greeks.

 

[adamo]

It's literally as if an ancient link to the Balkan Greek world brought J2b to Italy and then Alexander the Great, a Macedonian, spread it from the southern Balkans all the way to Pakistan/India in his conquests much later on as well.

 

[Vinnie]

Haplogroup J2b is associated with the Neolithic Greeks that spread agriculture. It has been found in the Dravidian middle classes in high frequencies also in the Northwest. Apparantly a proto-Mediterannoid people mingled with the Dravidian peoples before the Indo-Europeans.

.

 

[trdbr1234]

I know this is old but....

It's funny how today's "Macedonian" state is a complete fabrication and there are people like him calling us a "fabricated" state. There is something close to 200,000 orthodox Albanians in Macedonia and a great deal of Vlach as well(whom are Albanian kin). Most are assimilated but many remember their roots. And its funny how they try to claim this "Macedonian" heritage through the traditions of these assimilated Albanians and Vlach. Kinda reminds me of how the state of Greece is built. All claiming heritage of the ancient people through assimilated Albanians.

Anyways, about the goat. The region of Dibra was highly Pagan in their practices until recently and the goat stems from Alexander the Great and Pirro as well. It was meant to signify strength and superiority I believe. We still have a tradition in Dibra where we spray the foundations of a house with goat blood and bury its head in the foundation before we built a house.

 

[Demetrios]

I know,Geghs north, toshks are south. But I'm saying a link like dyrrachium, a Trojan colony on coastal Albania. Maybe there's a link between toshks and Tuscans, as the 2 most similar languages to ancient Etruscan are Armenian and Albanian.

Dyrrachium, a Trojan colony? Really? Epidamnos or Epidamnus, later the Roman Dyrrachium (modern Durrës), are all Greek names. This was a Greek colony founded in 627 BCE by a group of Greek colonists from Corinth and Corcyra (modern Corfu).

 

[Demetrios]

Epirotes and Albanians are not the same people but Epirotes are an integral part of the Albanian nation today, let us not forget the process and the evolution of nations. Gjergj Kastrioti has brought together Arben and Epir. They spoke similar language with their distinctive differences, and in the long run the Arben (Gheg) have influenced the Epir dialect/language (Tosk) but after standardization is the other way round. So it was give and take on both sides only because they felt akin to one another. The first written documents of old Albanian were Gheg. The Kastriotis were in the middle of these two distinct divisions (middle pre-Albania) and that is why Scanderbeg could bring together the then two distinct groups into what was to become known as modern Albanians. You can see this even today when you travel from Montenegro (where Albanians are)through Kosovo, Macedonia (where Albanians are) and all the way to the south Albania, you can feel the history and realize how did this happen. Those Epirotes simply did not feel akin to Greeks and Arben (Arbër) did not feel akin to Slavs. Tosk and Gheg may have a lot of differences but their language was common (they coudl understand each other without translation) even before Scanderbeg, that is why they stick together and feel as part of the whole Albanian nation.

Honestly I cannot believe the claims similar to DeJavu since they are childish and just a wishful thinking.

Epirotes have nothing to do with Albanians. Neither Tosks, nor Labs and Chams which also inhabit modern southern Albania. Albanians migrated in Epirus Vetus (Old and real Epirus) as well as Epirus Nova (New Epirus also known as Illyria Graeca) during the 14th century AD in mass numbers, and a few nomadic families from the 11th century AD. There were no Albanians before that time in Epirus.

Epirotes were always Greek and spoke North-Western Greek dialects in antiquity. They were all Greek tribes.

Epirus was not just Greek, but part of the proto-Greek region, into which the Greek language developed, therefore not just Greeks, but original Greeks.

 

[Demetrios]

Kastriotis's heraldry is a version of the original Byzantine double-headed eagle with a red background. There is nothing special about it. Many other European and non-European nations use it as a way of claiming Byzantine continuity. There were also many other Greek families who used it.

Arms of the despots Michael and Philip Palaiologos (1410s)

Banner of the Empire of Trebizond (1385)

By the way, the double-headed eagle symbol, before becoming a Byzantine symbol, it was an originally ancient Greek, Hittite, and Assyrian (from where it probably originated) symbol.

 

[Demetrios]

STOP! They give his origin as Epirotean not as Greek. At that time Epirotean referred almost exclusively to Albanians. The Albanian language at that time was known as Epirotean as well. I'll let you search this dictionary to verify:

The exclusivity of relating Albanians with Epiroteans persisted for a long time, hence why ethnic maps like these were common:

In reality there were Greek and Albanian of Epirus region just like today, but at that time they were only counted as Albanians, which is why Albanians look so widepread in the South in those maps. The coastal area is most likely Albanian.

There is a reason why these couple of maps appear only after the 18th century AD. It's because these regions, including Epirus (known as Vilayet of Janina) were controlled by Albanian rulers within the broader Ottoman world of course. It's not that Epirotes were counted as Albanians. These maps don't represent any ethnoghraphic or historical accuracy. Were are the Vlachs and the Greeks and the Jews who were all known to have inhabited Epirus and were much more than the Albanians? And by the way, if you want to play with maps, let's see this following from 1681 AD which shows the limits of the Greek world, with Epirus, etc., and Albania being a small region next of Durres, at the very borders of the Greek world. At least this map can be backed historically in contrast to the ones you share.

And here one from 1730 by G. & L. Valk.

Here is also an ethnographic map from 1880 AD by Ernst Ravenstein.

 

[blevins13]

Epirotes have nothing to do with Albanians. Neither Tosks, nor Labs and Chams which also inhabit modern southern Albania. Albanians migrated in Epirus Vetus (Old and real Epirus) as well as Epirus Nova (New Epirus also known as Illyria Graeca) during the 14th century AD in mass numbers, and a few nomadic families from the 11th century AD. There were no Albanians before that time in Epirus.

Epirotes were always Greek and spoke North-Western Greek dialects in antiquity. They were all Greek tribes.

Epirus was not just Greek, but part of the proto-Greek region, into which the Greek language developed, therefore not just Greeks, but original Greeks.

Tumulus Burials in South Albania

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond


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[Demetrios]

Tumulus Burials in South Albania

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond


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First of all, tumulus burials never ceased in Greece. We even find them in the Hellenistic era. Not that it really matters, because what Homer describes in his Epics aren't really representing Mycenaean burial practices, but Archaic Greek burial practices. It is one of the elements introduced into the Epics from his timeline, as he did a number of other minor details which didn't really interfere with the main story.

Second, which burial pratices are you referring to in Albania, because i get the idea you mean a number of burial practices in Epirus? Albania didn't exist back then. Epirus did, and was always part of the Greek world, with famous Mycenaean sites such as the ones at Ephyra, Glykys Limin, Dodona, Nekromanteion of Acheron and many mounds.. I am including Korce in the Epirus Mycenaean influence area by the way, since there is obvious Mycenaean presence.

And last but not least, what does all this nonsense has to do with what i shared above? You think this is an argument? Do you even know that Mycenaean DNA has already been established?

 

[blevins13]

First of all, tumulus burials never ceased in Greece. We even find them in the Hellenistic era. Not that it really matters, because what Homer describes in his Epics aren't really representing Mycenaean burial practices, but Archaic Greek burial practices. It is one of the elements introduced into the Epics from his timeline, as he did a number of other minor details which didn't really interfere with the main story.

Second, which burial pratices are you referring to in Albania, because i get the idea you mean a number of burial practices in Epirus? Albania didn't exist back then. Epirus did, and was always part of the Greek world, with famous Mycenaean sites such as the ones at Ephyra, Glykys Limin, Dodona, Nekromanteion of Acheron and many mounds.. I am including Korce in the Epirus Mycenaean influence area by the way, since there is obvious Mycenaean presence.

And last but not least, what does all this nonsense has to do with what i shared above? You think this is an argument? Do you even know that Mycenaean DNA has already been established?

from Lazaridis (2017)
Quote
“Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia”.

Than consider

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

And than you will understand that tumulus in western Balkans are not related to Mycenaean and Proto- Greeks but to Yamnaya people.
Mycenaean (Greeks) shaft graves vs tumulus Yamnaya people.

It is simple and easy, complications related only To the desire of Northern (British and Germans) to connect to Greek culture when is obvious that there is not any connection.



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[blevins13]

Kastriotis's heraldry is a version of the original Byzantine double-headed eagle with a red background. There is nothing special about it. Many other European and non-European nations use it as a way of claiming Byzantine continuity. There were also many other Greek families who used it.

Arms of the despots Michael and Philip Palaiologos (1410s)

Banner of the Empire of Trebizond (1385)

By the way, the double-headed eagle symbol, before becoming a Byzantine symbol, it was an originally ancient Greek, Hittite, and Assyrian (from where it probably originated) symbol.

Not Byzantine but Roman Eagle.

Here you have the Roman legion of Illyrians from Dalmatia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovians_and_Herculians



And here is Skenderbeu Eagle




Byzantine as a name is a modern invitation and very misleading.

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[Demetrios]

from Lazaridis (2017)
Quote
“Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia”.

Than consider

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

And than you will understand that tumulus in western Balkans are not related to Mycenaean and Proto- Greeks but to Yamnaya people.
Mycenaean (Greeks) shaft graves vs tumulus Yamnaya people.

It is simple and easy, complications related only To the desire of Northern (British and Germans) to connect to Greek culture when is obvious that there is not any connection.



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You are just very easy with your nonsense.

First of all, the study mentions "the Mycenaeans had ~4–16% ancestry from a ‘northern’ ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia". 4-16% is literally nothing. And what does this suppose to mean? You bring it as some news, i have already gone through this study from cover to cover, i bet you haven't even read a page of it. What does this suppose to mean i ask again, because i don't feel bad about it.

Second, the tholos tombs that we find in Mycenaean culture were already present in Minoan Crete for more than a 1000 years before they appeared in Mycenaean culture.
http://www.minoancrete.com/kamilari.htm
Yamnayans didn't build tholos tombs, but what is known as kurgan tombs which are different from tholos. Tholos tombs have also been found in Spain pre-IE cultures, they were pretty common in the Mediterranean.

 

[Demetrios]

Not Byzantine but Roman Eagle.

Here you have the Roman legion of Illyrians from Dalmatia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovians_and_Herculians

View attachment 11061

And here is Skenderbeu Eagle

View attachment 11062


Byzantine as a name is a modern invitation and very misleading.

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You want to use Rome instead of Byzantium, i have no problem with it. Byzantium is a word mis-used by the Western historians to diminish the Roman past of what we know today as Byzantium, if anything i feel better calling it Rome, or Romania/Ρωμανία as it was called.

Second, this is not the Roman eagle, but the double-headed eagle symbol which hails originally from the Hittites and the Assyrians before them. Read the "Ancient Near East" past.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle#Ancient_Near_East

Hittie double-headed eagle. Alaca Höyük city gate, Turkey (1450-1180 BCE).

 

[blevins13]

You want to use Rome instead of Byzantium, i have no problem with it. Byzantium is a word mis-used by the Western historians to diminish the Roman past of what we know today as Byzantium, if anything i feel better calling it Rome, or Romania/Ρωμανία as it was called.

Second, this is not the Roman eagle, but the double-headed eagle symbol which hails originally from the Hittites and the Assyrians before them. Read the "Ancient Near East" past.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle#Ancient_Near_East

Hittie double-headed eagle. Alaca Höyük city gate, Turkey (1450-1180 BCE).

So the Romans of the new Rome took it from Hittites after seeing in the stones....are you serious????!!!!

See it again and rethink.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovians_and_Herculians




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[blevins13]

You are just very easy with your nonsense.

First of all, the study mentions "the Mycenaeans had ~4–16% ancestry from a ‘northern’ ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia". 4-16% is literally nothing. And what does this suppose to mean? You bring it as some news, i have already gone through this study from cover to cover, i bet you haven't even read a page of it. What does this suppose to mean i ask again, because i don't feel bad about it.

Second, the tholos tombs that we find in Mycenaean culture were already present in Minoan Crete for more than a 1000 years before they appeared in Mycenaean culture.
http://www.minoancrete.com/kamilari.htm
Yamnayans didn't build tholos tombs, but what is known as kurgan tombs which are different from tholos. Tholos tombs have also been found in Spain pre-IE cultures, they were pretty common in the Mediterranean.

I did not say tholos I said shaft, from tumulus to Shaft is a hard transition, as for when I read Lazaridis from Kavala, look it up on Mycenaean thread. Even for Lazaridis is difficult to bridge Yamnaya with Mycenaean.

And again

The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.


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