Light skin allele of SLC24A5 gene was spread by the Indo-Europeans (R1a + R1b)

quaquaraqua said:
Is that humor?
may be it's funny in your country where only the 1,7% of population has european descent, sincerely i don't take care anything about the so called germanics, term without any sense unless you are speaking about linguistics!
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Dani benitez IP address shows Napoli in Italy, same location as Joeyc. I'm suspicious that this might be the same person.
 
The idea comes from a possible I2-M26 early bronze age migration from Germany through Iberia and finally Sardinia. Otzi was probably fairly typical of most central and southern Europeans at the time. I don't think you can call these early Central Europeans Germanic. It's more of an Iron-Age description of Central Europe.
 
ebAmerican said:
The idea comes from a possible I2-M26 early bronze age migration from Germany through Iberia and finally Sardinia. Otzi was probably fairly typical of most central and southern Europeans at the time. I don't think you can call these early Central Europeans Germanic. It's more of an Iron-Age description of Central Europe.
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I dont think that is what he meant (i.e. something productive) whoever he was;
But i also remember that Sparkey once mentioned such a migration and def. the I2-M26 had to come from somewhere into Sardinia; But that is (as you said) has nothing to do with the Germanic peoples as such - the emerging of a Germanic peoples as such begins within the Indo-European context plus the pre-existing pops present in these areas; And only Vandals in that context stepped a foot into Sardinia (brief and scanty numbers);
 
LeBrok said:
Dani benitez IP address shows Napoli in Italy, same location as Joeyc. I'm suspicious that this might be the same person.
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Seems pretty evident since the very first posts that something was wrong with this individual. Moreover, he insulted many times...enough to get banned. I recommend to read this whole thread to notice other things though.

Explanation for the Sardinian I2-M26:
sparkey said:
The days of supposing an I2-M26 origin in Sardinia are over; it's clearly a founder effect there. Iberia has significant diversity, considering that the most common subclade (L160+) has high diversity there, and an outlier (L277+ L247+) is found there. See Cullen. That could indicate that most modern I2-M26 passed through Iberia, at least northeastern Iberia near the Pyrenees. However, it's worth noting that the greatest I2-M26 outlier is in fact German, as is a cousin of the Iberian outlier, indicating that before arriving in Iberia, it was indeed in or around Germany, or at least expanded that direction as well between the end of the Ice Age and the beginning of the Neolithic. See Cullen again.
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So when the expansion took place germanic languajes did not exist. If a (north) central European connection could be inferred, it happened so long ago and was rather indirect. The similarities between ethnic Sardinians and the Neolithic samples we have so far, suggest that the former aren't shifted towards Northern Europe in regards of the later.
 
Scandinavian I2a1b-Motala12 (HG),for 8000 years ago...

rs12913832:GG (light eyes)
rs1426654:AA (lighter skin)
 
gyms said:
Scandinavian I2a1b-Motala12 (HG),for 8000 years ago...

rs12913832:GG (light eyes)
rs1426654:AA (lighter skin)
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Motala12 did not have the blue eye h1 haplotype like fellow Mesolithic Europeans La Brana-1 and Loschbour, but he defintley had light eyes. He also had derived A/A alleles in SNP rs28777(light skinned version), which means he probably had derived G/G alleles in SNP rs16891982(light skinned version), but was not able to be tested at that SNP. Sf11 another Mesolithic Swede(from a Baltic island very close to Gotland) but around 500 years younger than Motala12, had derived G/G alleles in SNP rs16891882 which means this mutations did exist in Mesolithic Europeans, and it is very possible Motala12 also had it.

Ajv58 though a Gotland hunter gatherer from 4,900-4,600 years ago was ancestral for both SNPs rs1426654 and rs16891982, like much older hunter gatherers La Brana-1 and Loschbour. I think it's safe to say most Mesolithic Europeans had the ancestral alleles in SNPs rs1426654, rs16891982, and rs28777 but close to 50% did not.

People like Angela, assume this means some Mesolithic Europeans were very light skinned and most were very dark skinned, but it is hard to believe skin color varied in extreme ways between family members and in small tribes. Obviously there are unknown SNPs or whatever contributing to the skin color of Mesolithic Europeans and modern Europeans and west Eurasians.

Early Neolithic European farmers who had some hunter gatherer ancestry(~20%) without a doubt(in my opinion) had the same light skin modern Europeans do, because their close and genetically isolated relatives Sardinians do. The question is where did they get this light skin from, their hunter gatherer or farmer ancestors?

There are many other questions about the origin of European pigmentation. Why did light skin-alleles which were maybe around 50% in European hunter gatherers and nearly fixated in near eastern farmers, become fixated in modern Europeans, and for northern European's why did rs16891982 G/G(also associated with hair color, ancestral alleles almost always means dark hair) rose to nearly 100%? Why did Eneolithic and copper age(proto-Indo Europeans) Pontaic steppe people have only have 4.3% C/A or A/A in rs1042602 and 43.2% C/G or G/G in rs16891982.
 
Scientists have not found any evidence for unknown SNPs contributing to the skin color of Mesolithic Europeans and modern Europeans and west Eurasians. People denying the importance of eye/skin colour predictions based on DNA, are just butthurt because the results don't fit their agenda.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
Motala12 did not have the blue eye h1 haplotype like fellow Mesolithic Europeans La Brana-1 and Loschbour, but he defintley had light eyes. He also had derived A/A alleles in SNP rs28777(light skinned version), which means he probably had derived G/G alleles in SNP rs16891982(light skinned version), but was not able to be tested at that SNP.
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You can deduce absolutely nothing from the fact that a sample can't be tested for a certain snp. The fact that a sample is positive for a certain snp means it is positive for a certain snp, it tells us nothing about whether the sample is positive for another snp, probably or otherwise.

I think it's safe to say most Mesolithic Europeans had the ancestral alleles in SNPs rs1426654, rs16891982, and rs28777 but close to 50% did not.
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No, it's not safe to say anything remotely like that. We have no data that would lead to that kind of conclusion.

People like Angela, assume this means some Mesolithic Europeans were very light skinned and most were very dark skinned, but it is hard to believe skin color varied in extreme ways between family members and in small tribes.
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Do not presume to speak for me, and stop attaching my name to simplistic, ridiculous statements. I never said anything remotely like that.

1) What we know is that the WHG samples tested so far had none of the major effect snps which cause light skin pigmentation in modern Europeans.

2) What we know is that of the SHG samples, one (Motala 12) had an SLC24A5 allele, and one (Sora Forvar 11), had an SLC45A2 allele. However, the Hunter Gatherer Ajv58 from Scandinavia thousands of years later who was contemporary with Loschbour and LaBrana was missing all of them.

3) What we also know is that Stuttgart had two copies of SLC 24A5.

4) Furthermore, we know that the European farmers Oetzi and Gok 4 carried two copies each of both SLC24A5 and SLC45A2.

5) What we know is that the effect of these snps is cumulative, and some have a bigger effect than others. That's all we know.

6) Well, we also know from forensics science the following:

Non-dark skin color (i.e. light or medium) is predicted by any two of the following
alleles, GG at rs12913832'Herc2, GG at rs16891982'SLC45A2, AA at rs1426654'SLC24A5, TT at rs1545397'OCA2, or AA at MCIR rs885479. You will notice they must be homozygous for those snps.

Light skin color is predicted by more stringent conditions, GG at rs1291382, which is the Herc2 gene, plus GG at rs16891982 which is SLC45A2, and AA at rs1426654, which is SLC24A5. All three must be present and homozygous.
https://ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/242774.pdf

(Non light skin color, i.e. medium or dark is predicted by GG at rs6119471 on the ASIP gene.)

 So, I think what we can reasonably deduce is that although some of the depigmentation mutations which cause light skin in modern Europeans had appeared in Europe sporadically and toward the east before the Neolithic, they swept Europe and became fixed after it.

All of this, which is duplicated in East Asia with regard to their own set of de-pigmentation genes, supports a connection with the Neolithic.

There are also, of course, all the papers which trace one of the major snps to the area between the Middle East and Central Asia, and the studies which posit a recent spread for these genes. The papers are cited upthread.

I think we can also reasonably deduce that when looking at European Mesolithic and European Neolithic Farmers, the farmers were probably lighter skinned on average.

Obviously there are unknown SNPs or whatever contributing to the skin color of Mesolithic Europeans and modern Europeans and west Eurasians.
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While it is possible that there are major de-pigmentation mutations which affected Mesolithic Europeans which do not impact us (the depigmentation genes already found account for modern European pigmentation in great measure already) there is nothing obvious about it whatsoever.

There are many other questions about the origin of European pigmentation. Why did light skin-alleles which were maybe around 50% in European hunter gatherers and nearly fixated in near eastern farmers, become fixated in modern Europeans, and for northern European's why did rs16891982 G/G(also associated with hair color, ancestral alleles almost always means dark hair) rose to nearly 100%? Why did Eneolithic and copper age(proto-Indo Europeans) Pontaic steppe people have only have 4.3% C/A or A/A in rs1042602 and 43.2% C/G or G/G in rs16891982.
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Again, the results so far do not support a 50% occurrence of light skin alleles among European hunter gatherers.

Stop falsifying data.
 
Sommo Angiolieri said:
Scientists have not found any evidence for unknown SNPs contributing to the skin color of Mesolithic Europeans and modern Europeans and west Eurasians. People denying the importance of eye/skin colour predictions based on DNA, are just butthurt because the results don't fit their agenda.
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I am sick and tired of people accusing me of having a white-raciest agenda, just because I question that Mesolithic Europeans were uniformly dark skinned. West Asians have the same percentage of known major light skin mutations as do Europeans, except for 374f which is about 50% in west Asia and 80-100% in Europe. That mutation is also associated with hair color, so it helps explain darker hair in west Asians. What about that do you not understand? If the average Swede and the average Iraqi have the same light skin mutations, yet radically differnt skin tones there have to be other SNPs involved.

You and Angela should read over what Olalde 2014 said about La Brana-1, in its supplementary article. They were very hesitant to claim La Brana-1 had a certain skin color.

You and Angela should see what Maju has to say about this. He uses similar arguments as i do.

If known light skin mutations make Europeans white like you guys claim, then Motala12 should have been white skinned.
 
Angela said:
You can deduce absolutely nothing from the fact that a sample can't be tested for a certain snp. The fact that a sample is positive for a certain snp means it is positive for a certain snp, it tells us nothing about whether the sample is positive for another snp, probably or otherwise.
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I can because rs28777 and rs16891982 are directly connected to each other. I looked at about 500 random individuals at GEDmatch and nearly every person with A/C alleles at rs28777 had G/C alleles at rs16891982, nearly everyone who had A/A alleles at SNP rs28777 had G/G alleles at SNP rs16891982. So, that means it is very likely Motala12 had G/G alleles at SNP rs16891982.



Angela said:
No, it's not safe to say anything remotely like that. We have no data that would lead to that kind of conclusion.
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Yes we do: La Brana-1, Loschbour, Motala12, Sf11, and Ajv58.



Angela said:
Do not presume to speak for me, and stop attaching my name to simplistic, ridiculous statements. I never said anything remotely like that.

Angela said:
1) What we know is that the WHG samples tested so far had none of the major effect snps which cause light skin pigmentation in modern Europeans.
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Motala12 had two(probably three) and Sf11 had one and was only tested for one.

Angela said:
2) What we know is that of the SHG samples, one (Motala 12) had an SLC24A5 allele, and one (Sora Forvar 11), had an SLC45A2 allele. However, the Hunter Gatherer Ajv58 from Scandinavia thousands of years later who was contemporary with Loschbour and LaBrana was missing all of them.
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Motala12 and Sf11(not Ajv58) are contemporary with La Brana-1 and Loschbour.

Angela said:
3) What we also know is that Stuttgart had two copies of SLC 24A5.
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Stuttgart had C/C alleles in SNPs rs28777 and rs16891982, while Motala12 had derived A/A alleles in SNP rs28777 and probably derived G/G alleles in SNP rs16891982, like Sf11. By your rules Motala12 probably had lighter skin than Stuttgart.

Angela said:
4) Furthermore, we know that the European farmers Oetzi and Gok 4 carried two copies each of both SLC24A5 and SLC45A2.
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Yep, like most modern Europeans and middle easterns.

5) What we know is that the effect of these snps is cumulative, and some have a bigger effect than others. That's all we know.

Angela said:
6) Well, we also know from forensics science the following:

Non-dark skin color (i.e. light or medium) is predicted by any two of the following
alleles, GG at rs12913832'Herc2, GG at rs16891982'SLC45A2, AA at rs1426654'SLC24A5, TT at rs1545397'OCA2, or AA at MCIR rs885479. You will notice they must be homozygous for those snps.

Light skin color is predicted by more stringent conditions, GG at rs1291382, which is the Herc2 gene, plus GG at rs16891982 which is SLC45A2, and AA at rs1426654, which is SLC24A5. All three must be present and homozygous.
https://ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/242774.pdf
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According to those predictions Motala12 was at least light to medium skinned, and if rs16891982 was tested he would probably pass as light skinned, while fellow hunter gatherers Loschbour, La Brana-1, and Ajv58 would be classified as non light to medium skinned. According to your believes in Mesolithic Europe skin varied from very dark to very light, and most middle easterns are as light as Europeans.

(Non light skin color, i.e. medium or dark is predicted by GG at rs6119471 on the ASIP gene.)
Angela said:
​So, I think what we can reasonably deduce is that although some of the depigmentation mutations which cause light skin in modern Europeans had appeared in Europe sporadically and toward the east before the Neolithic, they swept Europe and became fixed after it.

All of this, which is duplicated in East Asia with regard to their own set of de-pigmentation genes, supports a connection with the Neolithic.

There are also, of course, all the papers which trace one of the major snps to the area between the Middle East and Central Asia, and the studies which posit a recent spread for these genes. The papers are cited upthread.

I think we can also reasonably deduce that when looking at European Mesolithic and European Neolithic Farmers, the farmers were probably lighter skinned on average.
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There are plenty of light skinned hunter gatherers in Siberia, so for east Asians it probably has nothing to do with farming. I agree that known light skin mutations became fixated after the hunter gatherers and farmers mixed for some reason. I also believe that the 374f mutations became more popular in Neolithic Europeans than middle easterns because their hair got lighter, and it went to another extreme in northern European's ancestors. There are unknown mutations though, and they could be from the farmers or hunter gatherers.

There are alot of possibilities for the skin color of Mesolithic Europeans. If their skin was not light, who knows what dark shade it was, and how their skin color varied. I honestly don't care much i have already wasted time doing research on this. I didn't prepare myself well for this post, but my argument is still unbeatable. No one can give an answer why an Iraqi and Swede with the same light skin mutations have such differnt skin colors. People are to Euro-centric when it comes to these mutations and ignore their presence in the rest of west Eurasia.


Angela said:
While it is possible that there are major de-pigmentation mutations which affected Mesolithic Europeans which do not impact us (the depigmentation genes already found account for modern European pigmentation in great measure already) there is nothing obvious about it whatsoever.

Again, the results so far do not support a 50% occurrence of light skin alleles among European hunter gatherers.

Stop falsifying data.
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You are totally incorrect. There is something unknown giving Europeans lighter skin than middle easterns, and why couldn't Mesolithic Europeans be the source? I am not falsifying data. The truth is that some Mesolithic Europeans had known light skin mutations, as of far it looks like around 25-50% did.

Why are you so obsessed with saying Mesolithic Europeans had dark skin. Last time you said north European instead of just European, even though two from Sweden have known light skin mutations. Do you have something against northern Europeans? If anyone questions the assumption Mesolithic Europeans had dark skin, you go berserk, and claim they are raciest.
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Angele have you forgotten i found Europeans at GEDmatch missing major light skin mutations(like Loschbour, La Brana-1, and Ajv58) but they were still light skinned? That is great evidence there are unknown mutations giving Europeans light skin. Just because i argued for the possibility Mesolithic Europeans had light skin does not make me raciest. I am questioning bad assumption others are making.
 
Angela said:
2) What we know is that of the SHG samples, one (Motala 12) had an SLC24A5 allele, and one (Sora Forvar 11), had an SLC45A2 allele. However, the Hunter Gatherer Ajv58 from Scandinavia thousands of years later who was contemporary with Loschbour and LaBrana was missing all of them.
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Ajv58 was not contemporary to Loschbour and LaBrana; Motola12/StoraFörvar11 (SHG) were contemporary to Loschbour/LaBrana (WHG);
However Ajv58 also an SHG (Lazaridis Apr. 2014) living thousands years later did not possess the light mutations as the Farmers and earlier SHG but was as dark-skinned as the WHG (Loschbour/LaBrana) before him i.e. rs1426654 G/G and rs16891982 C/C - Skoglund 2014; Something obviously changed in the SHG for the darker;

Where as Ötzi and the Gökhem farmers (who were all contemporary with the dark-skinned Ajvide Gotland Hunter-gatherers) were already light-skinned [rs1426654 A/A and rs16891982 G/G] as in the common modern European mode;

Angela said:
4) Furthermore, we know that the European farmers Oetzi and Gok 4 carried two copies each of both SLC24A5 and SLC45A2
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Ötzi and Gök2 (Gök4 was no longer the prime desire of the Uppsala team);
 
Nobody1 said:
Ajv58 was not contemporary to Loschbour and LaBrana; Motola12/StoraFörvar11 (SHG) were contemporary to Loschbour/LaBrana (WHG);
However Ajv58 also an SHG (Lazaridis Apr. 2014) living thousands years later did not possess the light mutations as the Farmers and earlier SHG but was as dark-skinned as the WHG (Loschbour/LaBrana) before him i.e. rs1426654 G/G and rs16891982 C/C - Skoglund 2014; Something obviously changed in the SHG for the darker;

Where as Ötzi and the Gökhem farmers (who were all contemporary with the dark-skinned Ajvide Gotland Hunter-gatherers) were already light-skinned [rs1426654 A/A and rs16891982 G/G] as in the common modern European mode;
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Thanks for correcting the record, Nobody 1. It is Loschbour and La Brana in the west, and Motala 12 and Stora Forvar 11 in the northeast who are roughly contemporary, while it is the Ajvide hunter-gatherer who is contemporary with Oetzi and Gok2.

Grouped correctly like that, it makes it clearer why I said, to quote myself, that, "I think what we can reasonably deduce is that although some of the depigmentation mutations which cause light skin in modern Europeans had appeared in Europe sporadically and toward the east before the Neolithic, they swept Europe and became fixed after it."

Actually, I should have said "probably became fixed after it", just as I used the word probably when I said that I think we can also reasonably deduce when looking at European Mesolithic and European Neolithic Farmers, that the farmers were probably lighter skinned on average.

Did we have a larger group of samples, and was the coverage in individual cases better (it is terrible in the case of Motala 12, for example), and so we could actually run the forensics tests and have some degree of certainty about the results, then we could be more definitive.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
I am sick and tired of people accusing me of having a white-raciest agenda, just because I question that Mesolithic Europeans were uniformly dark skinned. West Asians have the same percentage of known major light skin mutations as do Europeans, except for 374f which is about 50% in west Asia and 80-100% in Europe. That mutation is also associated with hair color, so it helps explain darker hair in west Asians. What about that do you not understand? If the average Swede and the average Iraqi have the same light skin mutations, yet radically differnt skin tones there have to be other SNPs involved.

You and Angela should read over what Olalde 2014 said about La Brana-1, in its supplementary article. They were very hesitant to claim La Brana-1 had a certain skin color.

You and Angela should see what Maju has to say about this. He uses similar arguments as i do.

If known light skin mutations make Europeans white like you guys claim, then Motala12 should have been white skinned.
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Don't mind him. That's just "Joey" with yet another account, who is the one who is really "butthurt" (as he likes to say) because these "predictions" based on a few SNPs are dubious at best, as plainly seen when they are checked against pigmentation data gathered from actual observation.
 
Nobody1 said:
Ajv58 was not contemporary to Loschbour and LaBrana; Motola12/StoraFörvar11 (SHG) were contemporary to Loschbour/LaBrana (WHG);
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SHG and WHG are used to loosely. Loschbour and SHG both largely descend from the same central European hunter gatherers, La Brana-1 had no ancestry from. Also, it is not established that all the Swedish hunter gatherers were closely related or just admixed in a similar way.

Nobody1 said:
However Ajv58 also an SHG (Lazaridis Apr. 2014) living thousands years later did not possess the light mutations as the Farmers and earlier SHG but was as dark-skinned as the WHG (Loschbour/LaBrana) before him i.e. rs1426654 G/G and rs16891982 C/C - Skoglund 2014; Something obviously changed in the SHG for the darker;

Where as Ötzi and the Gökhem farmers (who were all contemporary with the dark-skinned Ajvide Gotland Hunter-gatherers) were already light-skinned [rs1426654 A/A and rs16891982 G/G] as in the common modern European mode;
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When will people learn!!!! I have proven millions of times online that there are unknown causes to European light skin. If the source of European light skin was known, then middle easterns and many south Asians should have the same light skin as Europeans. I have found Europeans at GEDmatch missing so called European light skin mutations, and they are still light skinned. Scandinavian hunter gatherers did not get darker, Sf11 and Motala12 are just not representative of the alleles most had in the Mesolithic age.
 
I don't have time to argue about this anymore. The last thing i will say is, Angela and others who think like her really piss me off. They claim I have an agenda, but whenever anyone claims it is possible Mesolithic Europeans had light skin they go crazy. She refuses to face the facts that there are unknown causes for European light skin. How crazy is it to believe that the science behind skin color is fully understood, when the average Iraqi and Swede have the same light skin mutations, and radically differnt skin tones?

When I found multiple modern northwest Europeans at GEDmatch missing major light skin mutations but still have light skin, she says the pictures and descriptions they gave me of their pigmentation and family member's pigmentation are not reliable!!! What Angela are they some type of conspiracy trying to trick me to think Mesolithic Europeans had light skin? Ancient European DNA has created many many many many possibilities for the origin of uniform light skin in Europe. My best guess is that Mesolithic Europeans were some type of brown tone(even Motala12 and Sf11), and that known and unknown European light skin mutations mainly came from their near eastern farmer ancestors.

I think the testing of stone age European hunter gatherers and farmers made clear breakthroughs for figuring out the origin of modern European hair and eye color, though. Since most European hunter gatherer samples are missing the 374f mutations they were probably very very dark haired, and this means light hair probably first became popular and spread after the Neolithic.

Also, so far 3/3 European hunter gatherers tested are light eyed, while 2/2 farmers tested so far are dark eyed. Today in Europe light eyes correlate with hunter gatherer ancestry while dark eyes correlate with farmer(or just middle eastern) ancestry. Most northern Europeans have light eyes but most have 45-50% European hunter gatherer(WHG) ancestry, so i don't think they directly inherited their light eyes from stone age European hunter gatherers, but that light eyes were positively selected and became dominate once again. The same positive selection that made light eyes dominate probably a also made light hair very popular, and can explain why today light haired people have a much higher percentage of light eyes.
 
Sile said:
another paper inside this link ....................also about light skin colour

http://www.unz.com/gnxp/plows-of-the-gods/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=plows-of-the-gods

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2014/04/23/science.1253448.DC1/Skoglund.SM.pdf

http://genetiker.wordpress.com/
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Good finds Sile;
They all confirm what the study (Skoglund 2014) itself confirms i.e. the major diffs. between the Ajvide hunter-gatherers and the Gökhem farmers; It is amazing that even by the dawn of the Indo-Europeans these two groups were still greatly diff. to each other in terms of genetic distance and pigmentation as Razib Khan (first link) points out;
 
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