Knez Dervan's Serbia and the Ethnogenisis of Balkan Serbs

hrvat22 said:
In eastern Herzegovina and southern Serbia prevails subclade I2-PH908, if there is any movement from that area to Croatia proof is subclade I2-PH908.
Although it has not been scientifically established Serbs from Croatian Lika have I2a-Dinaric = 22.95%, I2-PH908 = 3.93% (Serbian genetic portal Poreklo)

https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1494.220

The only scientific work for Bosnian Serbs says that they have 20% of E1b. Officially we only have to believe this scientific work.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm






Croats also have I2a Dinaric types with subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ in Dalmatia up to 60% and this is proof that Croats come from White Croatia to Roman Dalmatia.

Genetics have proven that Croatians comes to Roman Dalmatia as only tribe.
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Ti si stvarno retardirana osoba, kakvo crkno poreklo tamo ima puno debila i trolova.

To što oni pričaju nema veze sa mozgom, pogledaj ovde [video]https://poreklo.rs[/video] traži u tabeli za I2a-Din south i north Ličane i napravi statistiku kao što sam ja uradio a ne da ponavljaš nebulozu o 3,93% kao pokvarena ploča.
Pored imena i prezimena svakog testiranog piše slave i mesto porekla, znaćeš da napraviš statistiku ako si završio bar 4 razreda osnovne škole a ako nisi onda žalim slučaj.
 
Bachus said:
Ti si stvarno retardirana osoba, kakvo crkno poreklo oni su gomila debila.

To što oni pričaju nema veze sa mozgom, pogledaj ovde [video]https://poreklo.rs[/video] traži u tabeli za I2a-Din south i north Ličane i napravi statistiku kao što sam ja uradio a ne da ponavljaš nebulozu o 3,93% kao pokvarena ploča.
Pored imena svakog testiranog piše slave i mesto porekla, znaćeš da napraviš statistiku ako si završio bar 4 razreda osnovne škole a ako nisi onda žalim slučaj.
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Please do not insult me, you have a history records and genetics, use it to refute my claims. By insulting and humiliating me as a person you do not getting anything.
 
hrvat22 said:
Please do not insult me, you have a history records and genetics, use it to refute my claims. By insulting and humiliating me as a person you do not getting anything.
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I gave you a link with database, please make it statistic because your claims about 3,93% Dinaric-south among Lika Serbs is not true.

You claims is based on outdated date made at small sample, and yes poreklo is full of ***** that is true.

I'm not fighting for higher percentage of Dinaric-south among Serbs I only fighting for the truth.

To be honest I would like that Serbs have more Dinaric-north, because Dinaric-north is older than Dinaric-south and also Dinaric-north is real Slavic haplogroup which can't be said for Dinaric-south, but facts are facts Serbs have 2/3 Dinaric-south and 1/3 Dinaric-north.
 
Bachus said:
I gave you a link with database, please make it statistic because your claims about 3,93% Dinaric-south among Lika Serbs is not true.You claims is based on outdated date made at small sample, and yes poreklo is full of ***** that is true. I'm not fighting for higher percentage of Dinaric-south among Serbs I only fighting for the truth. To be honest I would like that Serbs have more Dinaric-north, because Dinaric-north is older than Dinaric-south and also Dinaric-north is real Slavic haplogroup which can't be said for Dinaric-south, but facts are facts Serbs have 2/3 Dinaric-south and 1/3 Dinaric-north.
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октобар 30, 2017,I2a-Dinaric = 22.95%, I2-PH908 = 3.93%...So, when it comes to Serb populations, typical haplogroups / sub-branches can be I2-CTS10228, R1a-M458, J2b-M205,..
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https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1494.220They each day look at the data for Lika, they best know statistics for Lika Serbs although it is not a scientifically based evidence.
You claims is based on outdated date made at small sample, and yes poreklo is full of ***** that is true.
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I use Serbian genetic portal Poreklo only for statistical genetic data, I do not read their mythomania, but some of details they know best since they explore Serb genetic from Lika, Dalmata, Bosnia etc.


Serbs from Bosnian Kraina (northwestern Bosnia)
Укупан број тестираних износи 68Хаплогрупа I2a (21) - 30.9%I2a-PH908 - 16.2%I2a-CTS10228 - 10.3%I2a - 4.4%
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Хаплогрупа I2a (21) - 30.9%

In Herzegovina is I2a to 70%, how much is percentage in eastern Herzegovina I do not know, but I'm telling you all the time that I2a-PH908 in Croatian Serbs it can also be of Croatian origin, do you understand English.

Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia have up to 70% of I2a and most of it is PH908(which proves Croatian migration from White Croatia), maybe today's Serbs come from Croatian areas to Lika and later transferred to Orthodoxy and become Serbians, maybe today's Serbs from Lika etc. with Dinaric-S and N types are native Croats who never come from south Serbia etc with Vlach population.
We do not have historical data on Serbian coming to Lika, Do you understand English.

Subclades about whom we are talking about are old 2,000, 1,500 years etc., when they get to subclade age of 700, 500, 400, 200 years, then we will be able to bring concrete conclusion.
For now we know that genetics only confirm arrival of Croats to Balkans(White Croatian subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/), we also know that for now E1b, J2b and R1b types from southeast Balkans are mostly Albanian-Vlachs origin including some I2a Dinaric-N types and R1a types.

When and from where Vlachs come to Croatia and Bosnia we will know for few years. For now based on subclades old 2000 or 1500 years we can not bring concrete conclusion.
 
hrvat22 said:
https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1494.220They each day look at the data for Lika, they best know statistics for Lika Serbs although it is not a scientifically based evidence.

I use Serbian genetic portal Poreklo only for statistical genetic data, I do not read their mythomania, but some of details they know best since they explore Serb genetic from Lika, Dalmata, Bosnia etc.


Serbs from Bosnian Kraina (northwestern Bosnia)

Хаплогрупа I2a (21) - 30.9%

In Herzegovina is I2a to 70%, how much is percentage in eastern Herzegovina I do not know, but I'm telling you all the time that I2a-PH908 in Croatian Serbs it can also be of Croatian origin, do you understand English.

Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia have up to 70% of I2a and most of it is PH908(which proves Croatian migration from White Croatia), maybe today's Serbs come from Croatian areas to Lika and later transferred to Orthodoxy and become Serbians, maybe today's Serbs from Lika etc. with Dinaric-S and N types are native Croats who never come from south Serbia etc with Vlach population.
We do not have historical data on Serbian coming to Lika, Do you understand English.

Subclades about whom we are talking about are old 2,000, 1,500 years etc., when they get to subclade age of 700, 500, 400, 200 years, then we will be able to bring concrete conclusion.
For now we know that genetics only confirm arrival of Croats to Balkans(White Croatian subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/), we also know that for now E1b, J2b and R1b types from southeast Balkans are mostly Albanian-Vlachs origin including some I2a Dinaric-N types and R1a types.

When and from where Vlachs come to Croatia and Bosnia we will know for few years. For now based on subclades old 2000 or 1500 years we can not bring concrete conclusion.
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Croats from Herzegovina have 71% I2a thanks to genetic drift (bottleneck efect) without any doubt.

Croats from Dalmatia have 50-55% I2a.

Croats from Primorje-Gorski Kotar Country (Primorsko-Goranska Županija) have 21 I2a.

Croats from nothwest Croatia have only aroun 15% I2a.

You talking only about Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia because they have high percentage of I2a, but you don't mention Croats from western and northwestern Croatria which have less I2a than Serbs from any region.
 
Bachus said:
Croats from Herzegovina have 71% I2a thanks to genetic drift (bottleneck efect) without any doubt.

Croats from Dalmatia have 50-55% I2a.

Croats from Primorje-Gorski Kotar Country (Primorsko-Goranska Županija) have 21 I2a.

Croats from nothwest Croatia have only aroun 15% I2a.

You talking only about Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia because they have high percentage of I2a, but you don't mention Croats from western and northwestern Croatria which have less I2a than Serbs from any region.
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Srbia was repopulated from Herzegovina. They became Serbs later.
 
Bachus
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Croats from nothwest Croatia have only aroun 15% I2a.
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They have 25%.
Croats from Primorje-Gorski Kotar Country (Primorsko-Goranska Županija) have 21 I2a.
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Western Croatia with Istria, Primorje, Lika have about 40%.

You talking only about Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia because they have high percentage of I2a, but you don't mention Croats from western and northwestern Croatria which have less I2a than Serbs from any region
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http://www.srpsko-nasledje.rs/sr-l/1998/10/article-1.html

Year 1804.....When we look at data of Šumadia (Central Serbia) population, we see that there are very few aboriginal people among them. In the Šumadia areas of Kačer, Gruža, Lepenica, Kragujevac, Jasenica, Smederevo, Podunavlje and Jasenica, Kosmaju and in the villages around Belgrade, the origin of the 8894 gender with 52,475 houses was examined. Of this number there are only 464 gender with 3603 aboriginal, and all other Šumadia population are settled and settlers have 7960 gender with 46,408 houses. Šumadia(central Serbia) are settled by settlers from almost all parts of today's kingdom, but they are mostly from dinaric areas, i.e. from Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, from Sjenica and New Pazar, Kolasin, Pešteri and Bihor, Dalmatia, Lika and other Dinaric regions.
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We do not know original genetics of Serbs from Serbia when they mostly came from Dinaric regions where I2a Dinaric prevails.


That Serbia are not settled from Dinaric regions two hundred years ago, Serbs from Serbia would probably have 5% or 10% I2a.
 
Wonomyro said:
Srbia was repopulated from Herzegovina. They became Serbs later.
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Around 3/4 of Serbs from modern Serbia (without Vojvodina) are originated from Herzegovina and Montenegro, thier ancestoes settled at teritory of modern Serbia in 18th and 19th century.
Serbia was heavy depopulated in late 17th ans early 18th century because of Serbian migration to the north and northwest in Srem, Bačka, Banat, Slavonia, Hungary, Lika, Kordun and Banija.
During the 18th and 19th century Serbs from Herzegovina and Montenegro were massively settled to territory of modern Serbia.
 
@ hrvat22

Y DNA of Croats from Primorsko-Goranska Županija

R1a - ​28,7%

I2a-Din - ​21,8%

R1b - 11,9%

I1 - 9,9%

E1b - 9,9%

J2b - 5%

G2 - 2%

N1a - 2%

I2-M223 - 2%

T - 2%

J2a - 2%

L - 1%

D1a - 1%

I2a-L38 - 1%

H - 1%
 
Bachus said:
Around 3/4 of Serbs from modern Serbia (without Vojvodina) are originated from Herzegovina and Montenegro, thier ancestoes settled at teritory of modern Serbia in 18th and 19th century. Serbia was heavy depopulated in late 17th ans early 18th century because of Serbian migration to the north and northwest in Srem, Bačka, Banat, Slavonia, Hungary, Lika, Kordun and Banija. During the 18th and 19th century Serbs from Herzegovina and Montenegro were massively settled to territory of modern Serbia.
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I agree with the most of you said. That's the reason why present day Serbs have lot of I2a-Din. The reason why some parts of Croatia don't is that Croatia was not fully depopulated durring the Otoman invasion, so the immigrants from Dalmatia and Herzegovina never became majority in some areas. However, you are making a logical mistake by calling them all Serbs before they migrated to Serbia or became Serbian Orthodox. Those who migrated elswhere and who never become Othodox, those never called themselves Serbs.
 
Wonomyro
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Those who migrated elswhere and who never become Othodox, those never called themselves Serbs.
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Those Othodox who migrated to Croatia never called themselves Serbs(there is no historical record who mentions Serbs except one or two records but also with Vlachs), before hundred years ago they beginning called themselves as Serbs under influence of Serbian Orthodox Church.

The reason why some parts of Croatia don't not have high percentage of I2a-Din is that Croatia was not fully depopulated durring the Otoman invasion,
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In northern Croatia I2a is about 25%, average for Serbia is 33%.

We know that settlers from Dinaric areas bring I2a to Serbia, that these settlers do not exist, Serbs in Serbia would have 5 to 10% of I2a.

However, this not change fact that I2a originally was White Croatian( https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/) origin in the Balkans.
 
Bachus said:
Ti si stvarno retardirana osoba... znaćeš da napraviš statistiku ako si završio bar 4 razreda osnovne škole a ako nisi onda žalim slučaj.
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Translation to English "You are really a retarded peson... you will know to make statistics if you finished 4 classes of the elementary school, if you did not, then I am sorry for your case". Moderators, your move, again.
 
Its true that modern Serbs from Croatia are mostly of Vlach origin. But these are for sure not I2a samples, no matter South or North. I2a-cts10228 is of Slavic expansion regarding Balkans. Just as R1a is.

When it come to Vlach haplogroups, best candidates are E-v13, R1b, J2b2 as Aromun study represented. And these would be mostly Romanized Illyrians and various natives. Furthermore there are more Vlach groups like J1, J2b1, E-M123, J2a, G2, G1, T, I1 and all who were completely Romanized therefore spoken Latin language or that arrived in Balkans from various parts of Roman empire or later Byzantine one.
 
Bachus said:
Ti si stvarno retardirana osoba, kakvo crkno poreklo tamo ima puno debila i trolova.

To što oni pričaju nema veze sa mozgom, pogledaj ovde [video]https://poreklo.rs[/video] traži u tabeli za I2a-Din south i north Ličane i napravi statistiku kao što sam ja uradio a ne da ponavljaš nebulozu o 3,93% kao pokvarena ploča.
Pored imena i prezimena svakog testiranog piše slave i mesto porekla, znaćeš da napraviš statistiku ako si završio bar 4 razreda osnovne škole a ako nisi onda žalim slučaj.
Click to expand...
All members of Eupedia are required to post in English. You also got infraction for demining other member of Eupedia.
 
mobileacc200 said:
Its true that modern Serbs from Croatia are mostly of Vlach origin. But these are for sure not I2a samples, no matter South or North. I2a-cts10228 is of Slavic expansion regarding Balkans. Just as R1a is.

When it come to Vlach haplogroups, best candidates are E-v13, R1b, J2b2 as Aromun study represented. And these would be mostly Romanized Illyrians and various natives. Furthermore there are more Vlach groups like J1, J2b1, E-M123, J2a, G2, G1, T, I1 and all who were completely Romanized therefore spoken Latin language or that arrived in Balkans from various parts of Roman empire or later Byzantine one.
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what?

can you give the source of the study of Vlach?
cause there are Vlachs with Slavic ancestry,
like the Antes
 
mobileacc200 said:
Its true that modern Serbs from Croatia are mostly of Vlach origin. But these are for sure not I2a samples, no matter South or North. I2a-cts10228 is of Slavic expansion regarding Balkans. Just as R1a is.

When it come to Vlach haplogroups, best candidates are E-v13, R1b, J2b2 as Aromun study represented. And these would be mostly Romanized Illyrians and various natives. Furthermore there are more Vlach groups like J1, J2b1, E-M123, J2a, G2, G1, T, I1 and all who were completely Romanized therefore spoken Latin language or that arrived in Balkans from various parts of Roman empire or later Byzantine one.
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The strongest haplogroups among Serbs from Croatia are I2a-Din and R1a, so majority of them are not Vlach origin, Vlach haplogroups are R1b, J2b2 and E-V13.
 
Y DNA of Serbs from Serbia at the day May 5 , 2017

I2a-Din - ​35%

R1a - 19%

E1b - 14%

I1 - 10%

J2 - 7%

R1b - 5%

G2a - 3%

N- 2%

J1 - 2%

I2b - 1%

Q -1%
 
Bachus said:
The strongest haplogroups among Serbs from Croatia are I2a-Din and R1a, so majority of them are not Vlach origin, Vlach haplogroups are R1b, J2b2 and E-V13.
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I2a-Din and R1a with subclades from Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania age of 500, 400, 300 etc.. years are and Vlach origin.

When Vlachs come to Croatia they have all those haplogroups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies
 
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