Is this indicative of Turkish ancestry?

texag9517

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Hi! I was hoping that someone could please shed some light on whether or not my father's AncestryDNA results are indicative of our supposed Turkish ancestry? Long story short, there is a family legend that we are descended from a Turkish princess. I don't buy the princess part, but I always thought that the Turkish ancestry was legit. However, after digging into a family tree that I found on FamilySearch for that particular branch of the family, I can't seem to find anything showing that (although, there were branches I couldn't get past the early 1830s on.) And it may be on a different part of the family, but unfortunately, I can't ask my grandfather to clarify whether it was through his father or mother. With that being said, a few years ago my father and I did AncestryDNA. I should have asked this question a few years ago, but it didn't cross my mind until this just recently that this may be a good place to ask my own questions. The results I am about to show below are from December 2016, but I figured that they are still decently good. For context, my father is of Scottish, colonial American, Irish (most likely around Cork based off his grandmother's surname before she was adopted,) and possibly Turkish on his father's side, and on his mother's side- his grandfather was from Devon, England, and grandmother from Roscommon, Ireland.

Results:

Ireland & Scotland- 74% (Range: 56%-86%)

England, Wales, & Northwestern Europe- 10% (Range: 0%-28%)

Scandinavia- 8% (Range: 0%-19%)

Europe West- 3% (Range: 0%-12%)

Europe South- 2% (Range: 0%-7%)

Middle East- <1% (Range: 0%-4%)

Iberian Peninsula- 1% (Range: 0%-4%)

Caucasus- <1% (Range: 0%-2%)

Also, under other regions tested, he did have a 0%-1% Central Asian show up that wasn't on his report.

When AncestryDNA updated in 2018, his results changed to just Ireland & Scotland at 72% and England, Wales, & Northwestern Europe at 28% (I remember this was the update that everyone complained about how known chunks of their ancestry were missing.)

In 2019, his results were Ireland & Scotland at 73%, England, Wales, & Northwestern Europe at 26%, and European Jewish at 1%.

We deactivated our accounts after that, so unfortunately I don't know how it would look now.

I also played around a bit with GEDMatch- on mixed mode populations, he would generally get a combination of a British Isle population + a Caucasian or Middle Eastern population, and on the Oracle-4s, he would sometimes get either a southern European or a Balkan population in addition to the other three being from the British Isles. However, after looking at some other people's GEDMatch results from the British Isles and Ireland, it doesn't seem to be uncommon for some people to get a Caucasian population in their mixed mode calculations (although, after comparing on Vahaduo, they generally seem to shift towards South Asia, whereas my father's and mine results still stay around the Black Sea coast.)

For reference as well, my dad's Eurogenes K13 breaks down as the below:

North Atlantic: 50.12%

Baltic: 21.16%

West Med: 14.42%

West Asian: 8.03%

East Med: 4.05%

East Asian: 0.88%

Amerindian: 0.70%

Siberian: 0.35%

Oceanian: 0.29%

We also did DNA Land, My True Ancestry, and FamilyTree DNA, and none of those provided any results that wouldn't be common outside of the British Isles, with the exception of the very random <1% Magyar result on FamilyTree DNA. However, I wouldn't trust any of those from what I've read.

My questions are, would you think that my father's results would prove our supposed Turkish ancestry? I know I'm working with an old dataset, but I don't think I've seen primarily British people getting Middle East or Caucasian on their results, and I don't really think that it would be that erroneous and inaccurate to show Middle Eastern and Caucasian, even with a lot less reference populations than there are today. Also, do you think that the European Jewish could be a proxy for the Turkish ancestry? I may be over-simplifying it, or misunderstanding it in general, but from I gather, Jews are a mix of southern European and Middle Eastern, which is similar to how Turks are. And I don't know anything about any Jewish ancestry on his side at all. I can provide some more GEDMatch results as well to help. Thanks for your assistance!
 
Yes the results are old but convincing that you have no Turkish ancestry. Do you have any DNA matches that are Turkish? At what relatedness. Just ascribe this to a family myth, just like the common myth of American Indian ancestors.
 
I'm not sure about the DNA matches- I deactivated the AncestryDNA account a few years ago now. However, can you please expand on how it's convincing that I don't have Turkish ancestry? From what I've seen, people from the British Isles typically don't get Middle East and Caucasian on their results. Even though the amounts are small, the Middle East does range up to 4%. And on GEDMatch, I often see around 1% East Asian/Siberian pop up on quite a few calculators. Finally, on Eurogenes K13, with the combined West Asian and East Med populations, has over 12% of his ancestry from there, which is higher than average again for people from Britian and Ireland.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm just trying to get all this figured out.
 
My K13 results:

North_Atlantic19.43 Pct
Baltic19.81 Pct
West_Med19.28 Pct
West_Asian15.02 Pct
East_Med22.4 Pct
Red_Sea0.89 Pct
South_Asian0.67 Pct
East_Asian0.51 Pct
Siberian0.33 Pct
Amerindian0.28 Pct
Oceanian0.28 Pct
Northeast_African0.54 Pct
Sub-Saharan0.57 Pct


Does that mean that I have recent ancestors from the Balto-Slavic, North Atlantic or Iberia? No it does not. It means that I share DNA segments with people that live in those countries that we have a common ancestor no matter how far back. Did you look at the Oracle for k13?
 
For reference as well, my dad's Eurogenes K13 breaks down as the below:

North Atlantic: 50.12%

Baltic: 21.16%

West Med: 14.42%

West Asian: 8.03%

East Med: 4.05%

East Asian: 0.88%

Amerindian: 0.70%

Siberian: 0.35%

Oceanian: 0.29%

~

Finally, on Eurogenes K13, with the combined West Asian and East Med populations, has over 12% of his ancestry from there, which is higher than average again for people from Britian and Ireland.

His Eurogenes K13 results may point to remote Turkish ancestry that goes back around 6-8 generations. The graphic below shows that Turkish individuals in the data set are rich in West-Asian and East-Med ancestry components (over 50%), with some West-Med, East-Asian and Siberian ancestry components, which is consistent with other genetic studies.

Akdeniz.png
 
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My K13 results:

North_Atlantic19.43 Pct
Baltic19.81 Pct
West_Med19.28 Pct
West_Asian15.02 Pct
East_Med22.4 Pct
Red_Sea0.89 Pct
South_Asian0.67 Pct
East_Asian0.51 Pct
Siberian0.33 Pct
Amerindian0.28 Pct
Oceanian0.28 Pct
Northeast_African0.54 Pct
Sub-Saharan0.57 Pct

Does that mean that I have recent ancestors from the Balto-Slavic, North Atlantic or Iberia? No it does not. It means that I share DNA segments with people that live in those countries that we have a common ancestor no matter how far back. Did you look at the Oracle for k13?

Sorry for the late reply, just got off work so I can pull up this data. On the Eurogenes K13 Oracle-4, here are his results:
PopulationPopulationPopulationPopulationDistance
FrenchIrishIrishIrish3.100846
FrenchIrishIrishWest Scottish3.148237
IrishSouthwest EnglishSouthwest EnglishWest German3.155997
FrenchIrishSouthwest EnglishSouthwest English3.190484
Southwest EnglishSouthwest EnglishSouthwest EnglishWest Scottish3.228422
FrenchIrishWest ScottishWest Scottish3.241449
FrenchIrishSouthwest EnglishWest Scottish3.280707
FrenchIrishIrishOrkney3.292338
IrishIrishSouthwest EnglishWest German3.30356
IrishSouthwest EnglishWest GermanWest Scottish3.322382
Southwest EnglishSouthwest EnglishSouthwest EnglishWest German3.325634
IrishIrishIrishCatalonia Spain3.335217
IrishSouth DutchSouthwest EnglishSouthwest English3.351747
FrenchIrishOrkneyWest Scottish3.35197
Southwest EnglishWest GermanWest GermanWest Scottish3.364273
FrenchIrishIrishSoutheast English3.366803
FrenchWest ScottishWest ScottishWest Scottish3.374531
IrishIrishNorwegianCatalonia Spain3.414063
FrenchSouthwest EnglishWest ScottishWest Scottish3.416296
FrenchIrishSoutheast EnglishWest Scottish3.435804

Mixed mode:
PercentagePrimary PopulationPercentageSecondary PopulationDistance
94.9Southwest English5.1Abkhazian1.9
94.1Southwest English5.9Ossetian1.92
94.1Southwest English5.9North Ossetian1.92
93.9Southwest English6.1Balkar1.94
94.7Southwest English5.3Georgian1.95
93.8Southwest English6.2Lezgin1.98
94.1Southwest English5.9Adygei1.98
93.8Southwest English6.2Chechen2
93.6Southwest English6.4Tabassaran2.02
93.9Southwest English6.1Kabardin2.03
93.8Southwest English6.2Kumyk2.04
94.9Southwest English5.1Kurdish2.31
93.7Southwest English6.3Nogay2.32
95Southwest English5Armenian2.33
94.3Southwest English5.7Turkmen2.34
94.5Southwest English5.5Azeri2.36
94.3Southwest English5.7Turkish2.41
95.2Southwest English4.8Georgian Jewish2.45
95.1Southwest English4.9Iranian2.47
85.8Irish14.2North Italian2.48

I've noticed on some other tests, though, such as Dodecad K12b and Harappa World, he does get Balkan populations in the oracle 4.

Dodecad K12b:
PopulationPopulationPopulationPopulationDistance
BulgarianCornwallIrishIrish1.637029
BulgarianCornwallCornwallOrkney1.66105
BulgarianCornwallIrishOrkney1.68029
BulgarianCornwallCornwallOrkney1.688486
CornwallCornwallIrishRomanian1.704316
BulgarianCornwallCornwallIrish1.713431
BritishBulgarianCornwallIrish1.720862
ArgyllBulgarianCornwallCornwall1.722776
BritishBulgarianCornwallOrkney1.725924
CornwallCornwallOrkneyRomanian1.726225
ArgyllBulgarianCornwallIrish1.731742
ArgyllBritishBulgarianCornwall1.747857
BulgarianCornwallOrkneyOrkney1.768209
ArgyllCornwallCornwallRomanian1.768209
ArgyllBulgarianCornwallOrkney1.775054
CornwallCornwallOrkneyRomanian1.779314
BritishBulgarianCornwallOrkney1.784848
BulgarianCornwallIrishOrkney1.797248
BritishBulgarianIrishIrish1.803654
BritishBritishBulgarianIrish1.804867

PercentagePrimary PopulationPercentageSecondary PopulationDistance
91.2British Isles8.8Georgians0.99
90.8British Isles9.2Abkhazians1.05
89.4Mixed Germanic10.6North Italian1.28
89.9British Isles10.1Armenians1.3
93.5Kent6.5Georgians1.3
93.2Kent6.8Abkhazians1.31
91.9Kent8.1Balkars1.32
88.7Mixed Germanic11.3North Italian1.34
92Kent8North Ossetians1.38
91.8Kent8.2Adygei1.43
91.6Mixed Germanic8.4Tuscan1.44
91.2Mixed Germanic8.8Tuscan1.45
83.4Kent16.6Bulgarians1.45
89.3British Isles10.7Balkars1.48
92.9English7.1Georgians1.48
93.1Northwest European6.9Georgians1.5
83.4Kent16.6Bulgarians1.51
89.4British Isles10.6North Ossetians1.53
87.9British Isles12.1Turkish1.54
89.1British Isles10.9Adygei1.54


Harappa World:
PopulationPopulationPopulationPopulationDistance
FrenchOrkneyOrkneySerbian1.855772
BritishBritishBritishRomanian1.943094
BritishFrenchOrkneySerbian1.955594
BritishBritishOrkneyRomanian2.01211
BritishBritishBulgarianOrkney2.135374
BritishOrkneyRomanianNorthwest European2.220582
BritishBritishBritishSerbian2.22172
BritishFrenchHungarianNorthwest European2.251536
BritishBulgarianOrkneyOrkney2.20965
BritishBritishBritishBulgarian2.287322
BritishBritishRomanianNorthwest European2.289349
BritishBritishFrenchHungarian2.295823
BasqueMordovianOrkneySerbian2.307187
FrenchHungarianNorthwest EuropeanNorthwest European2.329934
BritishBritishSerbianNorthwest European2.358088
FrenchOrkneySerbianNorthwest European2.363172
BritishOrkneyOrkneyRomanian2.363472
BritishBritishFrenchSerbian2.381759
OrkneyOrkneyRomanianNorthwest European2.444098
BritishBulgarianOrkneyNorthwest European2.47537

PercentagePrimary PopulationPercentageSecondary PopulationDistance
92.5British7.5Georgian1.28
92.3British7.7Abkahzian1.36
94.5Northwest European5.5Georgrian1.48
94.4Northwest European5.6Abkahzian1.51
93.7Northwest European6.3Armenian1.56
90.7British9.3Balkar1.58
92.4Northwest European7.6Istanbul Turk1.61
92.7Northwest European7.3Turk1.62
90.9British9.1Adygei1.62
91British9North Ossetian1.63
92.6Northwest European7.4Kayseri Turk1.64
79.7British20.3Bulgarian1.66
77.9British22.1Romanian1.67
93.4Northwest European6.6North Ossetian1.68
93.2Northwest European6.8Balkar1.68
91.4British8.6Armenian1.68
91.4Northwest European8.6Aydin Turk1.69
93.3Northwest European6.7Adygei1.7
93Northwest European7Azeri1.78
89.8British10.2Istanbul Turk1.82

I've sometimes seen people with Irish or English ancestry getting Caucasian populations on mixed mode, but after playing around on Vahaduo, those typically turn into South Asian populations, whereas my dad's stays around the Black Sea (my mythology may be incorrect, however. I can expand on this further if needed.)

For some additional context, here are the results in question, versus the population averages for populations found on the British Isles via Eurogenes K13 on GEDMatch. I summed up some of the traditional northwest European populations, west Asian populations, and then, since we're talking about Turkish, the East Asian populations. My dad has at least a couple of percentage points lower when North Atlantic, Baltic, and West Mediterranean are summed up, at least 2.5% higher when summing up West Asian, East Mediterranean, and Red Sea, and higher than everyone else with the exception of Orcadian when summing up East Asian, Siberian, and Amerindian.

Dad's ResultsIrishOrcadianSoutheast_EnglishSouthwest_EnglishWest_Scottish
North_Atlantic50.1252.2351.3350.5251.9853.18
Baltic21.1624.0224.4423.2722.123.3
West_Med14.4212.3912.6813.9815.112.31
West_Asian8.036.324.974.464.925.56
East_Med4.051.412.55.092.71.72
Red_Sea00.820.310.090.950.88
South_Asian01.0911.080.881.14
East_Asian0.880.090.230.040.120.05
Siberian0.350.031.050.060.050.47
Amerindian0.70.990.810.620.150.8
Oceanian0.290.330.390.620.590.34
Northeast_African00.180.080.120.280.08
Sub-Saharan00.10.20.040.160.12
Sum of North_Atlantic, Baltic, West_Med85.788.6488.4587.7789.1888.79
Sum of West_Asian, East_Med, Red_Sea12.088.557.789.648.578.16
Sum of East_Asian, Siberian, Amerindian1.931.112.090.720.321.32
 
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Update: Someone on another site recommended that I get G25 coordinates. I found a way to simulate them based off K36 results, and I was really surprised by how accurate they seem to be. I ran these through the G25 World Countries Calculator K105 (Scaled) Vahaduo tool on Explore Your DNA. I included my mom's results as well as my own- I also am getting a Turkish-adjacent population, so I don't think it's noise since she is of German and Czech descent, and any noise should have gone away at that point, I would think.


Target: Dad
Distance: 0.3609% / 0.00360898 | ADC: 0.5x RC
39.0 Ireland
28.2 Wales
23.8 England
6.0 Scotland
3.0 Georgia


I also ran my mom's, and myself, for comparison:


Target: Mom
Distance: 0.5716% / 0.00571612 | ADC: 0.5x RC
71.6 Belgium
11.0 Slovenia
9.0 Germany
8.4 Austria


Target: Me
Distance: 0.3938% / 0.00393751 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.2 Wales
29.2 Belgium
18.8 Holland
3.8 Georgia


After removing Georgia (and then subsequently Armenia and Azerbaijan,) my dad's results read Turkey at 0.5x add distance col; however, my Turkish-adjacent population went away until I reduced it back to 0.25x.




Target: Dad
Distance: 0.4469% / 0.00446887 | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.2 Ireland
29.4 Wales
25.2 England
3.2 Turkey




Target: Me
Distance: 0.4397% / 0.00439679 | ADC: 0.25x RC
37.8 Belgium
36.6 Ireland
16.0 Wales
7.6 Montenegro
2.0 Turkey


I'm pretty confused since the K36 results didn't really indicate anything that would show up as Turkish, excluding a relatively high (5.09%) of North Caucasian on my dad's results. However, at this point, I'm pretty sure that the Turkish results are legit.
 

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