Mycernius
The Hairy Wookie
Okay I'll explain: An atheist or atheism is the disbelief in the existance of a God or Gods. to quote from 'Chambers Thesaurus'jarvis said:
I like the word nullifidian. from now on I will call myself a nullifidian
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Religion Is Allah, Jehovah, etc., the same God?
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Sensuikan San
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I must confess ...
I'm rather taken with the concept of being a "Heathen" !
:evil: ?W????
I'm rather taken with the concept of being a "Heathen" !
:evil: ?W????
Mycernius
The Hairy Wookie
Just a quick question for you Jarvis. I take it you are a christain, just how much of a believer are you and to which denomination do you belong? (actually thats two questions 
) You can either post here, PM me or ignore me. I am just curious and would like to know where your perspective on this subject is coming from.
) You can either post here, PM me or ignore me. I am just curious and would like to know where your perspective on this subject is coming from.1.100%
2.presbyterian
3.this question was about if allah and God are the same..
I don't think they are...thus I said they are not..
I say this because everything I have read in the old and new testament,and quran says they are not the same..
I mean I guess you could call a horse and a lamborgini the same..you could call them both transportation.....you could catagories them as such...but in reality they are completly different..
a lamborgini doesn't run on hay, and a horse doesn't have to hit 240 mph in the kentucy derby...they are in fact completly different.
2.presbyterian
3.this question was about if allah and God are the same..
I don't think they are...thus I said they are not..
I say this because everything I have read in the old and new testament,and quran says they are not the same..
I mean I guess you could call a horse and a lamborgini the same..you could call them both transportation.....you could catagories them as such...but in reality they are completly different..
a lamborgini doesn't run on hay, and a horse doesn't have to hit 240 mph in the kentucy derby...they are in fact completly different.
lexico
Chukchi Salmon
As a mutt philosopher and mutt theologian, may I ?
Everything has a context, I think, and so does every opinion that helps to define every individual. Without looking at the person in its totality and its reasons and history, it would make very little sense to compare the resulting conclusions only. If there are things we share, it's only coincidence; if there are differences, it's only personal differences. What is there to fight about ?
Isn't it so much more interesting to see how the person got to be that way instead of comparing conclusions ? There seems to be more joy in excercising the imagination for the other person who is different, although the two may not end up working for the same goal.
In a nonreligious context, which I believe is the forum's, I think we can at least agree to see the Hebrew Torah, Christian Testaments, and the Holy Books of Islam, of which the Quran is only one of many, as classical texts rich is philosophy and characterized with intense interests in spirituality and the question of being human.
If we can agree to the simple fact that these calssical texts are being discussed in a context not exclusively withing the religious, then we can engage in meaningful talk, and thereby extract immense knowledge and insights into human civilization.
It has often been said since the renaissence that Western civilization was given a kick start by the two great traditions of the pre-classical world--namely Hebrasim and Hellenism. They are both religious, and philosophical. The common ground on which everyone can find meaning cannot be anything else than historical interpretation.
For example, what did the Isaiah passage mean in Jewish history ? What are the symbolisms within it, not looking back from the viewpoint of Christianiy, but before that ? How did the Hebrews understand this passage, and the idea of the "Innocent, suffering lamb ?" These would be somewhat better understood by one in the Jewish tradition, but it is in fact a cultural legacy transcending the Jewish nationality, and something that can nourish all mankind and hopefully enrich their spirituality.
Everything has a context, I think, and so does every opinion that helps to define every individual. Without looking at the person in its totality and its reasons and history, it would make very little sense to compare the resulting conclusions only. If there are things we share, it's only coincidence; if there are differences, it's only personal differences. What is there to fight about ?
Isn't it so much more interesting to see how the person got to be that way instead of comparing conclusions ? There seems to be more joy in excercising the imagination for the other person who is different, although the two may not end up working for the same goal.
In a nonreligious context, which I believe is the forum's, I think we can at least agree to see the Hebrew Torah, Christian Testaments, and the Holy Books of Islam, of which the Quran is only one of many, as classical texts rich is philosophy and characterized with intense interests in spirituality and the question of being human.
If we can agree to the simple fact that these calssical texts are being discussed in a context not exclusively withing the religious, then we can engage in meaningful talk, and thereby extract immense knowledge and insights into human civilization.
It has often been said since the renaissence that Western civilization was given a kick start by the two great traditions of the pre-classical world--namely Hebrasim and Hellenism. They are both religious, and philosophical. The common ground on which everyone can find meaning cannot be anything else than historical interpretation.
For example, what did the Isaiah passage mean in Jewish history ? What are the symbolisms within it, not looking back from the viewpoint of Christianiy, but before that ? How did the Hebrews understand this passage, and the idea of the "Innocent, suffering lamb ?" These would be somewhat better understood by one in the Jewish tradition, but it is in fact a cultural legacy transcending the Jewish nationality, and something that can nourish all mankind and hopefully enrich their spirituality.
a tree is known by it's fruit
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050528...T0VYOgas0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2MTQ3MTFjBHNlYwN0cw—
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050528...T0VYOgas0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2MTQ3MTFjBHNlYwN0cw—
lexico
Chukchi Salmon
I take that as slander, and implying racist ideas. Could we please agree to erase such negative ideas ? We will not accomplish anything by so doing, jarvis.jarvis said:
how can it be racist?
there are all sorts of different races of muslims...
in my veiw all people are sinners....all people can be tempted to do wrong, Christains, atheists muslims jews ,you name it....
the difference is what the religion teaches...
Jesus did'nt call for jihad, mohamed did'nt say love your neighbor as yourself.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/
there are all sorts of different races of muslims...
in my veiw all people are sinners....all people can be tempted to do wrong, Christains, atheists muslims jews ,you name it....
the difference is what the religion teaches...
Jesus did'nt call for jihad, mohamed did'nt say love your neighbor as yourself.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/
jarvis, you remember the tower of babel right? where the languages were split in order to stop the people from their foolish thoughts about building a tower into the heavens? now wouldnt it be a concept to think about that maybe this happened with the religions?
the parallels between the religions is pretty huge, you can even see christianity and hinduism having the same roots and theories in it.
sensuikan and mycernius... do you guys consider yourselves atheists or agnostics?
the parallels between the religions is pretty huge, you can even see christianity and hinduism having the same roots and theories in it.
sensuikan and mycernius... do you guys consider yourselves atheists or agnostics?
Shizu Seraph
two stopovers to Japan
jarvis said:
The same reason why religious fundamentalist fruitcakes fcuk the world... YOU TAKE THINGS TOO LITERALLY!!! Holy books (Bible, Qur'an, Torah) are extremely poetic and full of allusions. You would need to thoroughly digest and disseminate the passages, critical thinking is needed. Keep in mind that words in those books have multiple meanings, which always differ from the reader. Just because "jihad" is "struggle" doesn't mean I have to blow myself up shouting ALLAHU AKBAR at the top of my lungs!! pweh!!
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Shizu Seraph
two stopovers to Japan
jarvis said:
None at all? Jarvis, have you been taking pot? Every religion has at least the smallest of parallelisms. The notion of a monotheistic God is one. Both Jesus and Mohammed taught that y'now. And if you read the Qur'an and the Hadith carefully, you will be surprised to find a lot of parallels; that is if you get the meaning of their passages...
Here's an example:
Mark 8:36 - What good is for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?
Qur'an 9:38 - Do you prefer the life of this world to the next? But the fruition of this mundane life, compared to that which is to come is little.
See what I mean? Though written in different ways, in different languages; they both convey the same meaning.
Shizu Seraph said:
sure if you have completely no understanding of what the Bible and koran teaches...
now lets put whats said into contexts....
Mark.8
[1] In those days the multitude being very great, and having nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples unto him, and saith unto them,
[2] I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now been with me three days, and have nothing to eat:
[3] And if I send them away fasting to their own houses, they will faint by the way: for divers of them came from far.
[4] And his disciples answered him, From whence can a man satisfy these men with bread here in the wilderness?
[5] And he asked them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven.
[6] And he commanded the people to sit down on the ground: and he took the seven loaves, and gave thanks, and brake, and gave to his disciples to set before them; and they did set them before the people.
[7] And they had a few small fishes: and he blessed, and commanded to set them also before them.
[8] So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets.
[9] And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away.
[10] And straightway he entered into a ship with his disciples, and came into the parts of Dalmanutha.
[11] And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
[12] And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
[13] And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
[14] Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.
[15] And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
[16] And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
[17] And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
[18] Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
[19] When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
[20] And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
[21] And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?
[22] And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.
[23] And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
[24] And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
[25] After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
[26] And he sent him away to his house, saying, Neither go into the town, nor tell it to any in the town.
[27] And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?
[28] And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.
[29] And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
[30] And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
[31] And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
[32] And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
[33] But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
[34] And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
[35] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
[36] For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
[37] Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
[38] Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
I gurantee you they do not mean the same thing at all..
Sensuikan San
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Getting Slightly off-topic.. but it was asked ...
Am I an atheist or an agnostic?
My word! If I had a dollar for every time I've been asked that question – I'd be able to buy everybody on the forum a new car !
I'm not totally sure as to why the question ever be asked, usually with such a wide-eyed earnestness that betrays horror! ...as if I had two heads, or horns....!
Are people ever asked if they're a real Christian?
Does one ever ask ?gAre you really Jewish??h (....actually...between 1933 and 1945...but I digress...)
Does one ever volunteer to question- on a one to one basis, a person's belief in Buddhism, Islam, Odinism, Shintoism, Khalsa, flying saucers or that Elvis may still be alive? (Well, actually, on the last two ... maybe!)
My observation is that the vast majority of thinking people observe the right to have a belief in any and all religions. However ... to have a belief in none – seems discomforting and unacceptable! To be an agnostic, to hold no fixed belief, but to question wether or not there may be some supreme being out there .... appears to be rest more comfortably with the vast majority.
So strange - that to be undecided is acceptable – but to have a firm conviction is not!
Curiously – the only people with whom I've ever discussed this and fully accepted my point of view ..... have been priests! From several denominations and faiths! I might add that several folks have been prepared to accept my atheism, provided that I viewed it and accepted it as a ?greligion?h or a faith (....which ... I suppose... it sort of.... is !)
But, there you go! Yes, I am a full-blooded atheist. I do not believe in a superior being. In my own opinion all 'Gods' are man-made, created in times when man had the intelligence to question what was all around him, but did not have the knowledge to come up with a quick and tidy answer. In my opinion, the ?ginvention?h of religion, the invention of ?gGod(s)?h was a cop-out...it enabled someone to give a quick and tidy answer !
It also enabled that someone ... to call himself a Priest, an Evangelist, a servant of God, a disciple....and assume a role of power over his fellows.
I also believe that the universe has always been there in one shape or form or another – for eternity (a word often used by religious folk – but rarely, truly understandable to them! ... it's just too big!) and that the stars, suns, planets, you and I were all created by a cataclysmic accident involving gravitational pull, nuclear fission, nuclear fusion, amino acids, and a hell of a lot of luck!
When I die (much sooner than most of you folks, perhaps ... we'll see!) - I'm not going anywhere, except for either a furnace or a hole in the ground. I don't remember a damned thing about life as it was before I was born, because I wasn't there....but I do know that it didn't bother me and it didn't hurt! I believe it will be just the same after I have gone!
I base my principles on life by judging what I see around me, and try not to offend others by observing my own rules based on those judgements. It's not difficult!
Let me paraphrase Shakespeare ...... People feel hurt, people bleed, people cry, people laugh, people smileat the birth of a child, people roll around on the floor if some poor guy steps on a banana peel and falls, they kill, they maim, they fall in love, they make babies, they try to learn new things .... people are wonderful creatures!
We are here by accident. And look what we've done!
WE did it!
We should all be proud – not hand it off to a nebulous, ?gsuperior being?h.
If I do have a 'God' – it's humanity itself.
Does that make everyone feel better.
But in closing ... where I draw the line ... is that I stress ... I do not ask anybody, I do not and will not try to sway anybody, I do not pressure anybody to follow my attitude and belief.
And I don't expect anyone to do the same to me or anybody else.
Warmest Regards,
?W????
andorin said:
Am I an atheist or an agnostic?
My word! If I had a dollar for every time I've been asked that question – I'd be able to buy everybody on the forum a new car !
I'm not totally sure as to why the question ever be asked, usually with such a wide-eyed earnestness that betrays horror! ...as if I had two heads, or horns....!
Are people ever asked if they're a real Christian?
Does one ever ask ?gAre you really Jewish??h (....actually...between 1933 and 1945...but I digress...)
Does one ever volunteer to question- on a one to one basis, a person's belief in Buddhism, Islam, Odinism, Shintoism, Khalsa, flying saucers or that Elvis may still be alive? (Well, actually, on the last two ... maybe!)
My observation is that the vast majority of thinking people observe the right to have a belief in any and all religions. However ... to have a belief in none – seems discomforting and unacceptable! To be an agnostic, to hold no fixed belief, but to question wether or not there may be some supreme being out there .... appears to be rest more comfortably with the vast majority.
So strange - that to be undecided is acceptable – but to have a firm conviction is not!
Curiously – the only people with whom I've ever discussed this and fully accepted my point of view ..... have been priests! From several denominations and faiths! I might add that several folks have been prepared to accept my atheism, provided that I viewed it and accepted it as a ?greligion?h or a faith (....which ... I suppose... it sort of.... is !)
But, there you go! Yes, I am a full-blooded atheist. I do not believe in a superior being. In my own opinion all 'Gods' are man-made, created in times when man had the intelligence to question what was all around him, but did not have the knowledge to come up with a quick and tidy answer. In my opinion, the ?ginvention?h of religion, the invention of ?gGod(s)?h was a cop-out...it enabled someone to give a quick and tidy answer !
It also enabled that someone ... to call himself a Priest, an Evangelist, a servant of God, a disciple....and assume a role of power over his fellows.
I also believe that the universe has always been there in one shape or form or another – for eternity (a word often used by religious folk – but rarely, truly understandable to them! ... it's just too big!) and that the stars, suns, planets, you and I were all created by a cataclysmic accident involving gravitational pull, nuclear fission, nuclear fusion, amino acids, and a hell of a lot of luck!
When I die (much sooner than most of you folks, perhaps ... we'll see!) - I'm not going anywhere, except for either a furnace or a hole in the ground. I don't remember a damned thing about life as it was before I was born, because I wasn't there....but I do know that it didn't bother me and it didn't hurt! I believe it will be just the same after I have gone!
I base my principles on life by judging what I see around me, and try not to offend others by observing my own rules based on those judgements. It's not difficult!
Let me paraphrase Shakespeare ...... People feel hurt, people bleed, people cry, people laugh, people smileat the birth of a child, people roll around on the floor if some poor guy steps on a banana peel and falls, they kill, they maim, they fall in love, they make babies, they try to learn new things .... people are wonderful creatures!
We are here by accident. And look what we've done!
WE did it!
We should all be proud – not hand it off to a nebulous, ?gsuperior being?h.
If I do have a 'God' – it's humanity itself.
Does that make everyone feel better.
But in closing ... where I draw the line ... is that I stress ... I do not ask anybody, I do not and will not try to sway anybody, I do not pressure anybody to follow my attitude and belief.
And I don't expect anyone to do the same to me or anybody else.
Warmest Regards,
?W????
Pararousia
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10 days and counting.......
Andorin, you wrote...
Holy Cow! *L* What kind of roots are you talking about? *L* I'm sitting here scratching my head on that one!
And, Lexico, my friend, I'm intrigued by this:
I'm aware of the link between the exodus from Egypt, the Passover symbolism, Isaiah 53 and Jesus, but I sense you meant more than that? Will you share further please?
Shizu Seraph, said,
I agree with that. We make bad choices and then we're surprised by the consequences?! This past week I went through "computer hell" because of some bad choices *L* but I was never separated from God which by my definition is true "Hell". Nor do I believe atheists are separated from God here and now. They may choose to deny. That's their right, but they will never be truly separated from God's extended goodnesses, beauty and grace until they die and they no longer have "choices". Then all the grace which flows so freely around us each and every day will disappear and they will be plunged into the darkness and torment of this great Separation called Hell. Happy memories will no longer exist only missed opportunities to receive Christ will be remembered. It is a place that was prepared for Satan and his followers; I'm glad I'm not going.
Peace.
*10 days and counting...till I arrive in Japan! woooooooooooooohoooo!
Andorin, you wrote...
Holy Cow! *L* What kind of roots are you talking about? *L* I'm sitting here scratching my head on that one!
And, Lexico, my friend, I'm intrigued by this:
I'm aware of the link between the exodus from Egypt, the Passover symbolism, Isaiah 53 and Jesus, but I sense you meant more than that? Will you share further please?
Shizu Seraph, said,
I agree with that. We make bad choices and then we're surprised by the consequences?! This past week I went through "computer hell" because of some bad choices *L* but I was never separated from God which by my definition is true "Hell". Nor do I believe atheists are separated from God here and now. They may choose to deny. That's their right, but they will never be truly separated from God's extended goodnesses, beauty and grace until they die and they no longer have "choices". Then all the grace which flows so freely around us each and every day will disappear and they will be plunged into the darkness and torment of this great Separation called Hell. Happy memories will no longer exist only missed opportunities to receive Christ will be remembered. It is a place that was prepared for Satan and his followers; I'm glad I'm not going.
Peace.
*10 days and counting...till I arrive in Japan! woooooooooooooohoooo!
mad pierrot
I jump to conclusions
Just a reminder...
This should be an objective discussion about religion, not a fight about who's right and who's wrong. Let's keep this from degenerating into something else.
This should be an objective discussion about religion, not a fight about who's right and who's wrong. Let's keep this from degenerating into something else.
Mycernius
The Hairy Wookie
If you have read any other posts I have put on this forum you might gather that I am an Atheist. As far as I am concerned God or Gods are an invention or primitive man to expalin the world around himself.andorin said:
Yes I have read the Bible, including the apocrapha (have you?) I am currently reading the Koran. I have read through the Gnostic texts and the Book of Enoch (early Jewish text). I have also read through and skimmed through the teachings of Lao-Tzu and Buddist and Hindu texts. I have worked and discussed the Sikh beliefs. So I do consider myself with a basic understanding of Religions. (Try reading The Divine Comedy, you will see how some Christain ideas come from that instead from the Bible). The question is have you looked at other religions apart from Christain teachings? And will you stop quoting from the Bible. I find it is usually used by people who have gone up a dead end and use it as a back-up when they have run out of their own ideas.jarvis said:
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