I2c frequency and diversity maps

Since we know for a fact that I2c2 was in Mesolithic Europe, I wouldn't guess all modern European I2c2 to be a backmigration. Some, maybe, although the SNP tree of I2c2 is still messy, so it's difficult to say which. One thing that you could probably use to support the backmigration theory is that the oldest known split in the I2c2 tree currently is the SNP BY181, which has Armenian, Georgian, and Turkish representation on both sides of it, and the modern TMRCA of I2c2 is only about 4000 YBP. (The more thoroughly European I2c1, by contrast, has a TMRCA closer to 9000 YBP.)
 
Attempted mapping of I2c1 and I2c2 to Mesolithic, Neolithic, and Bronze age cultures:

I2c1 : Tardenoisian --> LBK --> Bell Beaker --> Unetice --> Tumulus --> Urnfield --> Hallstatt --> La Tene; I2c1 spread further with the alpine Celts (R1b-U152).

I2c2 : Kongemose --> Ertebølle --> Funnelbeaker --> Corded Ware --> Catacomb --> Trialeti

I2c2 is mainly found in Armenians, every deep subclade(BY181+ and BY181-) of I2c2 includes Armenians and they score the highest national level if I2c2(4%), in this scenario it is then associated with R1b-L584(60% of R1b in Armenia) and hypothetically, the Trialeti culture. a TMRCA of 4000 years dates to the start of Trialeti.

I2c2 in Georgians must have an Indo-European origin, in the same sense R1b-L584 in Georgians has. In Europe, I2c2 matches the territory of the Alan migrations, who must have carried it from Armenia during their raid in the first century ("So the Alans, being still more provoked by this sight, laid waste the country, and drove a great multitude of the men, and a great quantity of the other prey they had gotten out of both kingdoms, along with them, and then retreated back to their own country.")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Early_Alans
R1b-L584 in Europe has a similar distribution.

The above scenario explains how I2c2 was found in mesolithic Sweden, and it's modern distribution in the Caucasus, a separate I2c2 lineage (?) is found in Unetice, but given how Caucasians fall under all subclades, I hypothesise that individual wasn't the ancestor of modesrn descendants, and that his line is extinct.

Catacomb culture is theorised to be the ancestor of Armenian, Greek, and Albanian languages. The origin of the Catacomb culture is disputed. Jan Lichardus enumerates three possibilities: a local development departing from the previous Yamna Culture only, a migration from Central Europe, or an oriental origin. If our model is correct, the answer is central Europe.
 
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IronSide said:
Could I2c2 in Europe be the result of Alan migrations ?

View attachment 8446

compare it with the project map https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215?iframe=ymap
consider also the Spanish results not showing on the map.

Upon the Hunnic defeat of the Goths on the Pontic Steppe around 375 AD, many of the Alans migrated westwards along with various Germanic tribes.

If the Alans settled the area that would later become Normandy, then it wouldnt be so strange to find I2c2 in England and Scotland. These north Caucasian people would also distribute R1a-Z93 in Spain,Tunis, Sicily and England(with the Normans).
Click to expand...

I'm not sure Alani settled Normandy ("settled" is a strong word, they rather instable mercenaries pops) nor they stayed there sometime, not more than in Brittany, spite what is said (people confused old Aremorica with today Britain, but Aremorica was between Loire mouth and River Somme bay); in Gaul, they stayed long enough around Orléans/Loire river, and some went up until North France -
Tephales, Alani, Sarmatians are confused sometimes; I red Sarmatians were in the Roman Army of Britain: could they have picked Y-I2c ont heir road and sent it to Britain? a question...
 
Ahhhh this old place, the I2c thread that no one seems to care about anymore, well except me of course.

Before I start I want to distance myself from the old junk that I was posting above, that was before I evolved into a higher being.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/late_neolithic_europe.gif

I want to discuss Maciamo's new Migration maps, in this one he associated I2c2 with Maykop and Kura-Araxes cultures, in both as a less likely or minor subclade.

This is IMO false based on the following arguments :

1-The TMRCA of I2c2 is between 4300 <--> 3300 YBP (2300 <--> 1300 BC), in the case of Kura-Araxes, this timeframe should have been older, all other haplogroups of the south Caucasus region (everyone in the middle east really) are older, and experiencing rates of growth and new subclades that precede this time entirely. (cf. J2a, J1, G2a, L). If I2c2 arrived to Anatolia in 6000 bc as in the Barcin site, then it should have remained there and expanded with other haplogroups, C1a2 was also found in Barcin, why hasn't C1a2 expanded with Kura-Araxes ? they probably went back to Europe (we see them later in Hungary), and whatever remained in Anatolia were few and their lines died out. Besides, what was confirmed was I2c, not I2c2.

2- The ethnic distribution of I2c2 deep subclades, all of them except one (I2c2a1e1) include Armenians, and it actually scores the highest frequency in that ethnic group (5%), in Azerbaijan, it only occurs among Armenians that used to live there, based on the Azerbaijan and I2c2 ftdna projects, in Georgia it is higher in eastern Georgia (historic Kakheti) than west (historic Colchis) compare this pattern with the R1b distribution in the same country.

if I2c2 expanded with Kura-Araxes then we should have observed it in other ethnic groups in greater frequency, the Jewish members share their subclade with people from Spain, Mexico, and Romania, and most likely emanate from a Latin origin, but also Armenians and other Caucasians, a migration during Roman times is likely, since the region was a roman province at one time.

I2c2 was found in Unetice culture, and that was the reason Maciamo thought it should have been in Maykop, I don't know if there is evidence for such movement, but it was more likely to have been native to the region, like the other I2 samples collected in the same culture.

Then how did I2c2 reach the Cuacasus ? its age and distribution in Armenians suggests that it arrived there with R1b-L584, its age coincides with Trialeti culture, which introduced Kurgans and horse sacrifices in the area.

useful links :
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215?iframe=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Georgia?iframe=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Azerbaijan/default.aspx?section=yresults
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#5/46.073/11.777
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34041-Bronze-age-Trialeti-Culture-in-Transcaucasia
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16419/
 
I argued in a previous post (here) that the majority of I2c2 in Greece is not of medieval Armenian origin, then asked the question of how it got there given what we know about its TMRCA, in two posts (here) and (here) I gave a possible answer to that question as a minor element within a larger migration consisting of R1b-Z2103 and E-V13.

Yesterday I found this paper Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge, they collected autosomal, mitochondrial, and Y-chromosome data from various ethnic groups in Afghanistan, two individuals from Balkh were I2c2, Balkh was also known as Bactra, the capital of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom, E-V13, J2-M67, and R1b-Z2103, were also found in individuals from Balkh.

This, however, is not conclusive of how these haplogroups migrated to the region, but it is a possibility.
 
Ok, I'm just joining this thread. I recently had a genetics test with LivingDNA and found out my YDNA was I2C (L596).

My entire family (both maternal and paternal lines) going back several generations actually comes from the region between Florina, Greece and Bitola, Macedonia.

My paternal line which we can trace back to my Great Great Great Great Grandfather (7 generations) was born circa 1800-1810. He was a farmer, and our surname is derived from his first name. I believe he was ethnically Macedonian-Slavic (or Western Bulgarian or Slavophone Greek - take your pick), but the village was under the Patriarch of Constantinople (effectively Greek Orthodox Churches). So I guess the region was part way through a Hellenisation process at the time. The village now falls under the territory of Greece, as of 1913.

Does anyone have any theories of the origin/likely migration path and the population percentages of I2C (L596) around this region?
 
LerinCovek said:
Ok, I'm just joining this thread. I recently had a genetics test with LivingDNA and found out my YDNA was I2C (L596).
My entire family (both maternal and paternal lines) going back several generations actually comes from the region between Florina, Greece and Bitola, Macedonia.
My paternal line which we can trace back to my Great Great Great Great Grandfather (7 generations) was born circa 1800-1810. He was a farmer, and our surname is derived from his first name. I believe he was ethnically Macedonian-Slavic (or Western Bulgarian or Slavophone Greek - take your pick), but the village was under the Patriarch of Constantinople (effectively Greek Orthodox Churches). So I guess the region was part way through a Hellenisation process at the time. The village now falls under the territory of Greece, as of 1913.
Does anyone have any theories of the origin/likely migration path and the population percentages of I2C (L596) around this region?
Click to expand...

Based on the current distribution of the two subclades I2c1 and I2c2 you fall in the territory of the latter, so I'd guess you are I2c2.

I2c2 is found in Greece, its relatively high in Crete 9%, but also Thessaly and the Peloponnese, a small sample from Macedonia was reported as 3.5%. so its natural that you have it.

How it got to Greece and the Balkans is a mystery, the subclade is young, dated to 1800 BC, not Neolithic nor early Bronze Age, its high frequency in Crete made me think it could related to the Minoans but its too young, besides Thessaly and the Peloponnese are not connected to the Minoans.

the other major lineage that appears in the same time is E-V13, dated to 2000 BC, the Mycenaeans by all means should have been primarily of this lineage, maybe I2c2 was a minor element in their movement ?

Its also present in Armenia, Georgia, and Turkey. at least your case is natural but what about me :grin: how in seven hells did this lineage reach south Arabia ? maybe from Palestine, two individuals from an old study are I2c2, by the whole sample it should be 0.5% in Palestine, its also present in some Jews, so .. who knows.

I've made a (hopefully useful) post here https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ity-maps/page5?p=518855&viewfull=1#post518855
and this one https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page19?p=524026#post524026
 
LerinCovek said:
Ok, I'm just joining this thread. I recently had a genetics test with LivingDNA and found out my YDNA was I2C (L596).

My entire family (both maternal and paternal lines) going back several generations actually comes from the region between Florina, Greece and Bitola, Macedonia.

My paternal line which we can trace back to my Great Great Great Great Grandfather (7 generations) was born circa 1800-1810. He was a farmer, and our surname is derived from his first name. I believe he was ethnically Macedonian-Slavic (or Western Bulgarian or Slavophone Greek - take your pick), but the village was under the Patriarch of Constantinople (effectively Greek Orthodox Churches). So I guess the region was part way through a Hellenisation process at the time. The village now falls under the territory of Greece, as of 1913.

Does anyone have any theories of the origin/likely migration path and the population percentages of I2C (L596) around this region?
Click to expand...

It is interesting if you fall to the "Balkan"cluster of I2c2. It has a distinctive haplotype different than those from Caucasus and Anatolia. For now it is found among Bulgarians, Serbs, Macedonians and Kosovars, comparatively tight geographical region.
Based on a person from Bulgaria, who took the Big Y test at FamilyTreeDNA, it is assigned its own branch I2c2 - L596->BY4177.
I would encourage you to take the 37 YSTR test at FamilyTreeDNA, just now there is a sale, to see if you fall into that subbranch.
 
Hello guys!

I just took a y-37 from Family Tree DNA and it shows that I'm I2c2 - Y16419 in Nevgen(possibility is %100), based on my father is from Caucasus(Meskhetian Turk), what would you say?
 
hey had the same from nevgen. then took livingdna test which confirmed i2c2-L596, so for me nevgen was correct


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
 
Hi, I think it is nothing surprising and possibly supporting the pro-Georgian theory on the origin of Meshketian Turkks (below).

Re: Nevgen, I too only had STRs first and nevgen predicted i2c2. I then took livingDNA test (SNPs) and it returned I2c2-L596.
So for me the prediction was correct. I think in your case it also makes sense, considering that we know about relatively high frequencies of i2c2 in Georgians and Armenians.

Wikipedia - Meshketian Turks
Origins and terms[edit]

​
The origin of the Meskhetian is still unexplored and highly controversial. But now it seems to emerge two main directions:

  1. The pro-Turkish direction: The Meskhetians were ethnic Turks, descending from Ottoman settlers, in which some Georgian were ethnic parts.[15]
  2. The pro-Georgian direction: Georgian historiography has traditionally argued that the Meskhetian Turks, who speak the Kars dialect of the Turkish language and belong to the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam, are simply TurkifiedGeorgians converted to Islam in the period between the sixteenth century and 1829 when the region of Samtskhe-Javakheti (Historical Meskheti) was under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.[16]
 
I2c2 probably comes from Unetice culture to the Caucasus in the Middle Bronze Age.
 
Flavius said:
Hi, I think it is nothing surprising and possibly supporting the pro-Georgian theory on the origin of Meshketian Turkks (below).

Re: Nevgen, I too only had STRs first and nevgen predicted i2c2. I then took livingDNA test (SNPs) and it returned I2c2-L596.
So for me the prediction was correct. I think in your case it also makes sense, considering that we know about relatively high frequencies of i2c2 in Georgians and Armenians.

Wikipedia - Meshketian Turks
Origins and terms

​
The origin of the Meskhetian is still unexplored and highly controversial. But now it seems to emerge two main directions:

  1. The pro-Turkish direction: The Meskhetians were ethnic Turks, descending from Ottoman settlers, in which some Georgian were ethnic parts.
  2. The pro-Georgian direction: Georgian historiography has traditionally argued that the Meskhetian Turks, who speak the Kars dialect of the Turkish language and belong to the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam, are simply Turkified Georgians converted to Islam in the period between the sixteenth century and 1829 when the region of Samtskhe-Javakheti (Historical Meskheti) was under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.
Click to expand...

Well, the interesting thing is, Armenian project owner Mher himself told me that, I stand far away from I2c2 Armenians in project. I also don't seem similar to Georgian DNA Project members. I have 0 matches in both 12-25-37, so I doubt my subgroup is same as our Transcaucasian neighbors.

BTW my STRs are:

14 24 17 11 12-13 11 13 11 13 11 29 18 8-8 12 11 24 15 19 32 11-15-15-16 11 10 19-21 15 13 17 16 34-38 12 10
 
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