I2a origins in Kurdistan

Taranis · Jul 11, 2011

Goga said:
Why not? Maybe haplogroup I* from West Asia that stayed in the Balkans became I2 and haplogroup I* that migrated into North Europe became I1.

Once again this is according to the Croatian scientists, and not some bloggers and other amateurs...

http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

They appear ridiculously Croatian-biased, however.

sparkey · Jul 12, 2011

Goga said:
No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.

OK, so the temporal aspect just isn't represented. Because I think your interpretation there is very possible. If true, that would make modern Haplogroup I in Croatia a back-migration... although, again, we know very little about where I* could have been.

Shetop · Jul 12, 2011

Goga said:
No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.

I think this could be better source for understanding I: The Story of I

Though nobody has written perfect story yet.

sparkey · Jul 12, 2011

Shetop said:
I think this could be better source for understanding I: The Story of I

Though nobody has written perfect story yet.

Yes, I like Jean Manco's writings. All that taken together should also help understand how R1b missed "I2a2" (now I2a1b).

LeBrok · Jul 12, 2011

Goga said:
Some people are guilty of being Eurocentric, but I'm a little bit West Asian-centric. But isn't this a part of Homo sapien nature, thinking that you are the centre of the universe...

Lol, you are a great guy. You have points in my book.

I enjoy discussion guys, not much time to post though. Good thread!
Regards

Alan · Jul 12, 2011

Simple to answer. I2a2 as no strong correlation with Groups having R1b*. Only the Kurds but this seems to be not a ancient phenomena but rather due recent mixings of Groups which belong to the ancestors of Kurds.

Alan · Jul 12, 2011

spongetaro said:
BTW if R1b originated in the Caucasus and Anatolia and didn't mix with the Danubian populations, western european should have had more western Asian component in their genetic admixture

This is also simple. The Reason why Western Europe has less of the "West Asian" component is because the "West Europe" component it self is already like a branch of the "West Asian". The closest component to "West Asian" is indeed the "West European"!

LeBrok · Jul 12, 2011

Great story of I. Thanks Shetop for the find.

Alan · Jul 12, 2011

Shetop said:
I think misprediction is possible.
If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.

I agree that 25% is probably a bit too high and assume something around 20%. But I dont believe that all of it is misprediction because otherwise why only among Kurds? And this in Nebel and Nasidzes studies?

And even IF than this "mispredicted" Haplogroups have to be at least very similar to I which is almost only found among Kurds. otherwise it wouldn´t only be mispredicted among them.

However I doubt that it is mispredicted. I only think the frequency is a bit to high settled. I assume rather something around 20%

nordicwarrior · Feb 18, 2013

Goga said:
I've got this from wiki:

Nice point Goga, I've also wondered about that 34% in Tehran for some time now. I thought I was the only one.

sparkey · Feb 18, 2013

nordicfoyer said:
Nice point Goga, I've also wondered about that 34% in Tehran for some time now. I thought I was the only one.

The gold standard study for Iranian Y-DNA is now Grugni 2012, the one that found the IJ sample, and it does not show absurd I levels like that. The weird figures come from Nasidze 2004, which has some apparently misreported numbers that may reflect a flaw in that study's SNP typing methodology.

Fire Haired · Jul 2, 2013

Goga said:
I believe that haplogroup I2a existed from the Balkans to Kurdistan and that because of the Indo-European migration waves from Kurdistan into Europe, people in the Balkans became more I2a people. Kurdish haplogroup I2a is a West Asian haplogroup and native to Kurdistan.

according to ancient asyrian records 2,800ybp the cimmerians who came from easterne uropean balck sea where Y DNA I2a1b is most popular invaded Iraq, Syria, and Turkey and conquered much of that area the Cimmerians spoke a Indo Iranein alngauge like modern Kurdish people so Kurds really speak a Cimmerian language and they get their I2a1b from teh Cimmerians it is actulley pretty simple that is also why it is kind of common to see kurdsish ith red hair and other european traits teh cimmerians veven though they lived around teh balc sea and had mainly eastern European i2a1b they where not tah relted to modern people in that area the Cimmerians accroding to Greek and Roman records where light haired and eyed from over 20 remains of other Indo Iraniens in asia and eastern europe from 4,000-2,000ybp they had Y DNA R1a1a and 60% blonde hair and 70 light eyes some also had red hair this is unlike modern I2a1b people around the black sea and the Indo Iraniens where most related to modern northeast europeans like latviens so the Cimmerians probably migrated to eastern europe and inter marrried with native I2a1b then brought it to the mid east and founded kurdistan

Goga · Jul 2, 2013

Fire Haired said:
according to ancient asyrian records 2,800ybp the cimmerians who came from easterne uropean balck sea where Y DNA I2a1b is most popular invaded Iraq, Syria, and Turkey and conquered much of that area the Cimmerians spoke a Indo Iranein alngauge like modern Kurdish people so Kurds really speak a Cimmerian language and they get their I2a1b from teh Cimmerians it is actulley pretty simple that is also why it is kind of common to see kurdsish ith red hair and other european traits teh cimmerians veven though they lived around teh balc sea and had mainly eastern European i2a1b they where not tah relted to modern people in that area the Cimmerians accroding to Greek and Roman records where light haired and eyed from over 20 remains of other Indo Iraniens in asia and eastern europe from 4,000-2,000ybp they had Y DNA R1a1a and 60% blonde hair and 70 light eyes some also had red hair this is unlike modern I2a1b people around the black sea and the Indo Iraniens where most related to modern northeast europeans like latviens so the Cimmerians probably migrated to eastern europe and inter marrried with native I2a1b then brought it to the mid east and founded kurdistan

Yeah, maybe you're right and is I2a not native to Kurdistan. But I2a can be from Scytho-Sarmatians to Sea Peoples that defeated the Hittites.

Also Kurds speak an Aryan language close to (or same as) Avestan, language that was spoken by the Zoroastrian Medes. Kurds are direct descendants of the Medes. And Medes were NATIVE to Kurdistan. Kurdish language is currently one of the 'purest' Aryan languages.

According to me URHEIMAN of Iranic race is somewhere between the Kurdish Zagros Mountains and an area South of the Caspian Sea. Later those proto-Iranic peoples migrated into the Steppes via the Central Asia corridor or the Caucasus Mountains.

But I do also believe that there was a BACK migration of some North-West Iranic people from the Steppes into Kurdistan, like Scytho-Sarmatians.

Goga · Jul 2, 2013

Fire Haired said:
Indo Iraniens where most related to modern northeast europeans like latviens so the Cimmerians probably migrated to eastern europe and inter marrried with native I2a1b then brought it to the mid east and founded kurdistan

No, Latvians have for about 40% of N1c1. Latvians and other East European folks have NOTHING to do with proto-Indo-Iranic race. Because Iranic people have a different branch of R1a and J2a. Iranic race = J2a + R1a-Z93. Latvian people = N1c1 + R1a-Z283. Latvian folks are totally a different race and have nothing to do with Aryans of Avesta. Latvians are partly Mongoloid...

Goga · Jul 2, 2013

I don’t understand why when people speak (spreading propaganda, lies & nonsense) about North-East Europeans they always seem to forget to mention DOMINANT native y-DNA haplogroup N1c1 in them. Are they ashamed of it? Before Indo-European arrived in Eastern Europe, N1c1 was already native there. Before Indo-Europeans arrived folks in Eastern Europe were like Sami in Lapland.

Fire Haired · Jul 3, 2013

Goga said:
No, Latvians have for about 40% of N1c1. Latvians and other East European folks have NOTHING to do with proto-Indo-Iranic race. Because Iranic people have a different branch of R1a and J2a. Iranic race = J2a + R1a-Z93. Latvian people = N1c1 + R1a-Z283. Latvian folks are totally a different race and have nothing to do with Aryans of Avesta. Latvians are partly Mongoloid...

i am not talking about Y DNA haplogroups Y DNA is just a direct lineage u can have a german y dna haplogroup but be 99,99999% chinese people get confused and think the hapllogroup is everything the orignal Indo Iranien speakers where a European ethnic group in the north pontic steppe u should not get confused with teh name Iranien modern iran has that name because they got it from those Indo Iraniens who migrated out of russia

it is not true that lativens have nothing to do with Indo Iraniens we have Indo Iranien remains inn west china known as the tarium mummies from 4,000ybp they where a mix of east asian and european but the remains from Adronovo culture in near by south siberia had just about 100% original Indo Iranien blood they had mainly light hair and eyes same with later Indo iranien remains like sythiens in tagar Russia overall their remains had 60% blonde hair and 70% light eyes
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-remains-Y-DNA-mtDNA-hair-color-and-eye-color

u only find that high amount of light hair and eyes in Scandinavia, baltic area, and northwest Russia Latvians are Baltic sine Indo iraniens had 70% light eyes and 60% blonde hair some how they are related to people in that area and that includes latviens

we dont know exactly who the first Indo European speakers where they probably lived between 7,000-8,000ybp and we know somewhere it was somewhere in Ukraine, southern Russia, or Caucus mountains by 6,000ybp Indo European cultures like Yamna culture had conquered the entire area of central russia, most of Ukriane, and the north Caucus mountains recently they have begun to release DNA from early Indo Europeans from 6,000ybphttp://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28818-New-DNA-results-from-early-Pontic-Steppe-Kurgen-people in central Russia they have said two very important things that relate to Indo Iraniens these Indo European remains from 6,000ybp where a European population had the same pale skin genes as modern ones and they had by far mainly brown eyes and they where very unrelated to later Indo Iranians who had mainly light eyes what this means is that Indo Europeans 6,000ybp where a mix of a bunch of different ethnic groups who lived around russia, Ukriane, and Caucus mountains and the Indo Iranians come from just one of those ethnic groups the Indo iranien ancestry not language might orignalley have come from northwest Russia pr Baltic area and all i read when tehy compared early Indo Iranian remains to modern people is their closest modern relatives are northest European including latviens

Goga · Jul 3, 2013

No, you're wrong.Those mummies are also party Near Eastern.

That means that folks from Near East migrated into the Steppes and mixed with the natives, Sami-like native forager. Europoid/Mongoloid mixed people.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/mtdna-from-late-bronze-age-west-siberia.html

Goga · Jul 3, 2013

Goga · Jul 3, 2013

Also, Airyana Vaeja was absolutely NOT located in Eastern Europe!!!

Fire Haired · Jul 4, 2013

i have never heard the tarium mummies where part mid eastern and maybe they where but so are pretty much all Europeans my ancestry is on my logo r whatever u call it i am a mix of German British and Norwegian i have red hair like some of those tarium mummies u would never except i had any mid eastern blood but i took a dna test in austomnal dna i do i have much more than most people around northern Europe everyone in Europe except maybe Finnish and sami have at least a little mid eastern and just because the tarium mummies had some means nothing

i know the maykop culture stuff it was a culture that grew out of the mid east and they connect it to proto indo Europeans because they had a indo european kurgen burial and it is 6,000 years old but there was also a 6,000-7,000years old kurgen in poland http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2010/10/six-thousand-year-old-elite-corded-ware.htm the kurgen thoery has been what most indo european experts have belived since teh 1950's they all agree that it was cultures liek dnieper donets and srdney srdney in Ukraine that where the first Indo Europeans

they dont say one of those cultures where the very first but they do think those related culture around ukriane 7,000ybp where the very first indo europeans and the reason why maykop had similarities is because rivers connected them to those people in Ukraine and they traded and copied the people in ukriane overall the earliest signs of indo european culture are still found in ukraine i think there is still a chance the culture and language started around caucus mountains and there is alot of evidence

i don't understand u keep trying to connect the mid east sure maykop culture is kind off a mid eastern connection but no matter how u put the people who spread the Indo European language where European ethnic groups around Ukraine and Russia there is no archaeology that supports the idea indo iraniens migrated from the caucus mountains or turkey they actulley came from the more northern steppe people in Russia we can defintley trace indo iraniens starting in russia not any where near the middle east this link explains how they migrated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians and also teh fact that 3,800 year old adronovo culture indo Iranians had mainly blonde hair and light eyes and that 3,400 year old indo iraniens in near by west china had red hair and that an overall of 60% of indo Iranian remains had light hair from 4,000-2,000ybp shows they where definitely European and that maybe they had a little mid eastern blood but definitely not a significant amount because then they would have darker pigmentation

i dont really understand all of these links i dont get wht they have to do with indo Iranians we already pretty much know what cultures and what areas they came from and there is no way indo iranien langauges spread through caucus mountains to iraq to iran then india because how do u explain the sythiens who where a european ethnic group living in central asia and speaking a indo Iranian language and they have traces of indo Iranian culture from siberia migrating towards iran and India and i just want to say when they went to India they did not create the indus valley civlization what it was is indo Iranians from Siberia started to have alot of contact and trade with people around iran and they adopted alot of mid eastern stuff but they still kept the indo Iranian religion and traditions then they eventually migrated towards India and they conquered the indus valley people they even admitted to it in the vedic skrpits and they just made themselves the high rank and put the native people to the lowest rank

I2a origins in Kurdistan

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