I2a I-4882 new subclade A7358

braxinjo said:
what doese mean * , Z16983*

and sings >
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It means there is a strong indication that your terminal SNP is not yet established. It means there is most likely another subclade you belong to that is not officially acknowledged as of yet.
 
So the plot thickens. FTDNA has changed by Haplogroup/SNP page to reflect a downstream subclade that I share with one other person (Polish) whose data is not public. Here is a composite image of the tree. Select the image to see it at a higher resolution:

ftdna_tree_02292016.jpg
The date of the MRCA is probably 1500 years ago.

YSEQ has a test if any of you folks downstream of I2a _ I-Y4882 are interested.

http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php...c9c049f5ef2a46
 
singingfalls said:
So there has been discovered an ancient subclade match for me. It is down stream from I-4882 and associated with novel snp 19468160. It is named A7358 and can be tested at YSEQ.NET under that name. I have found a match at Poznan Poland. It is an old clade (2000 yrs) but exciting for me none the less. It is still not recognized at ISOGG or YFULL.
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Wow, great news! By the way, Early Medieval DNA from Poznan will be published this year:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...nd-coming-soon?p=475918&viewfull=1#post475918

Samples from the 10th-11th centuries from the Early Medieval cemetery at Poznan, Srodka:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śródka,_Poznań

"(...) Śródka [ˈɕrutka] is a historic neighbourhood of the city of Poznań in western Poland. It lies on the right bank of the Warta river, opposite the island of Ostrów Tumski where the city's cathedral is situated. It belonged to the former district of Nowe Miasto; in the current administrative division of Poznań, Ostrów Śródka is part of an osiedle which also includes Ostrów Tumski and the neighbourhoods of Zawady and Komandoria. Archaeologists have found evidence of settlement in Śródka which may date from the ninth century.[1] By 1231 Sródka was a ducal settlement, and in 1288 it was granted to the bishops of Poznań. It obtained town rights in the 15th century (Ostrówek, at its western end, was a separate town), and was incorporated into the city of Poznań in 1800. Its name is related to the Polish word środa ("Wednesday"), this being the day of the weekly market once held there. (...)"
 
Krzysztof Narog map of I2a-L621 is not correct because it determines source of I-S17250 too east..I2a I-Y4882 has source in Southeast Poland and western Ukraine but to map source is further to central Ukraine, which is not true. I-Y4882 comes directly from southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine or White Croatia to Croatia and not from place specified in the map..


I-CTS5966

Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228 and also S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- (I-CTS10228*)
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 56266
Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Gmina Dębica, Poland


I-CTS10936

Subgroup: I-P37 : M423+ CTS10936+ CTS5966-
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: N113464
Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Moskorzew, Poland

I-CTS5966

Subgroup: I-P37 : M423+ CTS10936+ CTS5966+ S17250- Y4460- Z17855-
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 56266
Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Gmina Dębica, Poland

CTS10228 is father, I-S17250 is White Croatian son, I-Y4882, I-Z16983, I-Y5596, I-S17250 * are grandchildren of CTS10228 and sons of White Croatian ​I-S17250 mutation...
 
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hrvat22 said:
Krzysztof Narog map of I2a-L621 is not correct because it determines source of I-S17250 too east..I2a I-Y4882 has source in Southeast Poland and western Ukraine but to map source is further to central Ukraine, which is not true. I-Y4882 comes directly from southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine or White Croatia to Croatia and not from place specified in the map..CTS10228 is father, I-S17250 is White Croatian son, I-Y4882, I-16983, I-Y5596, I-S17250 * are grandchildren of CTS10228 and sons of White Croatian ​I-S17250 mutation...
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I think you are misunderstanding this map. Krzysztof built this map based on the actual claimed locations of ancestors traced back according to known locations that were designated by the individuals tested. Are you saying that you know otherwise? With regard to "Cucuteni-Tripilian - migracja" it is my understanding that post glacial migrations emerged from the area indicated by Krzysztof. Please point me to a paper or abstract that says otherwise. I'm very interested to know. In some of the information I have seen Croatia as a "possible" source of these genetics for my clan. But keep in mind this is strictly Y Chromosome on the Narog map not autosomal.
Tell me hrvt22, have you yourself been tested for your Y DNA? It would be enlightening to know if you are I2a or R1a.
 
singingfalls said:
I think you are misunderstanding this map. Krzysztof built this map based on the actual claimed locations of ancestors traced back according to known locations that were designated by the individuals tested. Are you saying that you know otherwise? With regard to "Cucuteni-Tripilian - migracja" it is my understanding that post glacial migrations emerged from the area indicated by Krzysztof. Please point me to a paper or abstract that says otherwise. I'm very interested to know. In some of the information I have seen Croatia as a "possible" source of these genetics for my clan. But keep in mind this is strictly Y Chromosome on the Narog map not autosomal.
Tell me hrvt22, have you yourself been tested for your Y DNA? It would be enlightening to know if you are I2a or R1a.
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For now this is official http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf

If something changes we will respect this. How do you think Croatia as a source?

Croatia can not be source because older mutations are in southern Poland, unless it was a return migration from Croatia to Poland but for now it is not so..


I did not do Y DNA tests, I follow Genetics of Croats and historical records of arrival to Balkan.
Normally that everything can change but this is what we know for now, Southern Poland - Balkan.


Cucuteni-Tripilian - migracja..?

The Cucuteni-Trypillian culture ca. 6000 to 3500 BC) in Eastern Europe.

I-S17250 (age: 1729 ybp)

What does Cucuteni-Trypillian culture has with Croats or White Croats when White Croatian mutations are 1700 years old, and has its source not in the area of Cucuteni-Trypillian culture ...

White Croats are not I2a types, they are a mixture of R1a and I2a types in southern Poland and western Ukraine in the period of first century AD, before that there are only assumption and is very difficult to prove existence of Croats or anyone else because there are mention entirely different tribes.

For the moment only mutation that can be considered of White Croatian origin is mutation I-S17250 (age: 1729 ybp), however, it occurs when White Croats are not mentioned, but considering that this is earlier mutation of all Croatian I2a types we can assume that I-S17250 is in relation with White Croats.
Do not forget mention of Croats at Azov in the 3rd century, it is possible that in the wider area from Azov up to southern Poland existed name Croat but at that time there was not recorded.
 
singingfalls said:
I am not an authority on the subject but Ken's map was not to be considered the definitive authority on the subject according to his own words. Here's what Bernie Cullen of the I2a group has this to say about Ken's map. "On Ken's map that you link to, he cautions us not to over-interpret the migration tracks."
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You have a public database for I2a and you draw a straight line movement, for now in southern Poland are two older mutations I-CTS10228 * and I-CTS4002...Nordtvedt compiled map in 2011 and to this day nothing is changed.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

Gmina Dębica, Poland

[TABLE="width: 727"]
[TR]
[TD]I-CTS10228 (age: 2156 ybp)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Moskorzew, Poland

[TABLE="width: 727"]
[TR]
[TD]I-CTS4002 (age: 5602 ybp)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I-CTS10228

Subgroup: I-P37 : M423+ CTS10936+ CTS5966+ S17250+ (Y4882 or Z16971 or Z16983 Needed)
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 245660
Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Łężyny, Poland

I-P37 : M423+ CTS10936+ CTS5966+ S17250+ (Y4882 or Z16971 or Z16983 Needed)
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 269795
Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Warzyce, Polska

[TABLE="width: 727"]
[TR]
[TD]I-S17250 (age: 1729 ybp)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Three earlier mutations exist in southern Poland while in Croatia exists only branch I-S17250 or very few other types....

Let's say that mutation I-S17250 has origin in Croatia, then migration went from Croatia to Ukraine, Bulgaria, Belarus, Poland, Russia, Slovakia, Czech Republic....There are not any historical records that prove this, it would mean that mutation I-S17250 is Illyrian origin and this belongs to science fiction
 
With all due respect I sent you exactly what Ken Nordtvedt himself said about his own map reinforced by the I2a group team. You can not base migration postulations on unfounded speculations which is what Ken himself says of his map. It is a guess. I am not saying that you are necessarily wrong, only that you have no proof that you are correct. I am not persuaded that I-S17250 is Illyrian but I must say that the highest concentration of I-S17250+ is in Dinaric South group. I am I-S17250+ but my STRs clearly place me in a Dinaric North subset of I-CTS10228.
 
singingfalls said:
With all due respect I sent you exactly what Ken Nordtvedt himself said about his own map reinforced by the I2a group team. You can not base migration postulations on unfounded speculations which is what Ken himself says of his map. It is a guess. I am not saying that you are necessarily wrong, only that you have no proof that you are correct. I am not persuaded that I-S17250 is Illyrian but I must say that the highest concentration of I-S17250+ is in Dinaric South group. I am I-S17250+ but my STRs clearly place me in a Dinaric North subset of I-CTS10228.
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You have south Polish mutation I-CTS10228 age: 2156 ybp and you have mutation I-S17250+ old 1729 ybp which means that if you're right these people arrived in Croatia or Dalmatia in the first century, to Roman Empire ?..there is no record that anyone before fall of the Roman Empire came to Dalmatia.

Italians do not have this mutation significantly, which means that after arrival of Slavs in sixth century, no one withdrew with mutation S17250 + to Italy and should have if there was this mutation..Albanians have 12% I2a but records mentioned Red Croatia up to Durrës in Albania. There are records of Slavs, place names in Albania and there is Montenegro at the border so mixing was after arrival of Slavs which is quite logical and visible in genetics, just as Croats have part of the Albanian genes.

You do not need Ken Nordtvedt, you draw map acording to data from public databases, direction is southern Poland - Croatia, Dalmatia.
It is for now as well in the year 2011, how will be in year 2020 I do not know..
 
New subclade recognized

I am pleased to say that a third individual has been recognized with subclade I-A7358. That make two individuals of Polish decent and one from Slovakia. I am searching out his ethnic origins now. Hopefully soon ISOGG will acknowledge this clade and it will grow. I have documented the ISOGG analysis here:
http://www.singingfalls.com/dna.html#ydna_updates
Scroll down to the May 10 update.
 
those are my suggested SNP.... did you test those.. if so would you share your results with us!

From Greece peloponnese
 
braxinjo said:
Hello, Ive done my 37 marker DNA test.
I am I2a1, predicted 17250+.
Now I am gong to do SNP Z16983 and A5913. Any other sugestion ?

My origin: Herzegovina, Croat.
Click to expand...

those are my suggested SNP.... did you test those.. if so would you share your results with us!

From Greece peloponnese
 
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