I-y16473

Siegmund

Siegmund

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Y-DNA haplogroup
I-Y16473
mtDNA haplogroup
J1c5a1
Hello there!

With the updates of LivingDNA I've learned my Y-hg is I-Y16473.
I know a sample from Krakauer Berg with this HG. So my paternal line was like

Cro Magnons / WHG -> ? -> ? -> Veneti? -> Wends and White Croats?

Or what is the most plausible theory at the moment?
 
Siegmund said:
Hello there!

With the updates of LivingDNA I've learned my Y-hg is I-Y16473.
I know a sample from Krakauer Berg with this HG. So my paternal line was like

Cro Magnons / WHG -> ? -> ? -> Veneti? -> Wends and White Croats?

Or what is the most plausible theory at the moment?
Click to expand...

I would question Cro-Magnons, but definitely WHG.

I-Y16473 is estimated to have been formed ~100 BCE, with the most recent common ancestor of all descendants estimated to have lived ~50 CE. There are only 24 tested descendants who've listed their earliest known countries of origin as Slovakia, Poland, Ukraine, and 4 other countries. See: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-Y16473/story

To find your most recent Y-DNA haplogroup and help to grow the Global Haplotree, you should consider doing FTDNA's Big Y-700 test, currently on sale for $399 ($50 off). Join the I-P37 (I2a) Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i-2a-hap-group/about/background) to find out more about your section of the Haplotree.
 
Yeah, maybe I used bad wording or something, but I'm interested in the time period between WHG (I2a) and Krakauer Berg (I-Y16473).

I don't wanna buy anything atm.
 
Now I tried to collect the archeological foundings with connected I2 stuff:

I-Y16473: Kra008 Germany, Krakauer Berg - 599 ybp - Sorb?


I-Y4882: POH36 Czechia., Pohansko - 1162 ybp - Moravian?


I-Y3120: I10430 Turkey, Bursa, Ilpinar - 1199 ybp - "Byzantine"*


I-CTS10228: I18719 Croatia, Ličko-senjska zupanija, Bezdanjača Cave 3200 ybp - Bronze age, culture?


I-M423: DOB001 Germany, Sachsen-Anhalt, Urd cave 9438 ybp - Late Paleolit/Mesolit - Magdalenian culture?

* "...I10430 / Byz3) seem more probably denizens of the Empire of their time, with the former’slow and the latter’s high steppe and European hunter-gatherer ancestry respectively signifyingthat they stemmed from the Asian and European parts of the Empire. Byz3 has a remarkableamount of Balkan hunter-gatherer-related ancestry (19±3%) and no significant CHG ancestryand could very well also be someone from beyond the borders of the Empire from Europe" From Lazaridis et al. 2022


What do you think? Is this a probable route?
 
Your branch I-Y4882 has its source in the area of later White Croatia ie Croats. Given that Croats have less of that branch it is very likely an earlier migration from southern Poland towards eastern Ukraine. Whether some branches migrated to the Czech Republic, etc. is not yet clear. What we know is that branches ie mutations I-Y4882 and I-Y4460 are found in Hungary from the time of the conquerors' arrival.

https://imgur.com/UyvcvyV

Which means that these two branches come later from the east. However the problem is the Czech Republic with arheogenetic I-Y4882 sample from Pohansko, possible year 861 while from Hungary(conquering period) is year 895-Xth century. So we have to see if Pohansko sample is from the time of conquering period. That is, some eastern migration to the Czech area.

What is interesting about these two branches(I-Y4882 and I-Y4460) is that they were found in eastern Ukraine and in the Azov region(I'm referring to living genetics here). And we know that Tanais Tablets were found there with the Croatian ethnonym. And for now, the only candidates for bringing this ethnonym to the wider Ukrainian area are precisely these two branches. If this could be proven by archaeogenetics, it actually means that the Croatian ethnonym lived in Southern Poland at least 2 thousand years ago, because it is the time of separation of these two branches and migration towards Kyiv.
 
Maybe it is too personal story, but maybe interesting in connection of my y haplo.
I've just recently learned that our original paternal family surname is of Czech/Slovakian origin.
So yes, if I-Y16473 or it's ancestor is White Croat they probably migrated to Czechia and/or Slovakia, or at least stayed and travelled there later.
 
Siegmund said:
Now I tried to collect the archeological foundings with connected I2 stuff:

I-Y16473: Kra008 Germany, Krakauer Berg - 599 ybp - Sorb?


I-Y4882: POH36 Czechia., Pohansko - 1162 ybp - Moravian?


I-Y3120: I10430 Turkey, Bursa, Ilpinar - 1199 ybp - "Byzantine"*


I-CTS10228: I18719 Croatia, Ličko-senjska zupanija, Bezdanjača Cave 3200 ybp - Bronze age, culture?


I-M423: DOB001 Germany, Sachsen-Anhalt, Urd cave 9438 ybp - Late Paleolit/Mesolit - Magdalenian culture?

* "...I10430 / Byz3) seem more probably denizens of the Empire of their time, with the former’slow and the latter’s high steppe and European hunter-gatherer ancestry respectively signifyingthat they stemmed from the Asian and European parts of the Empire. Byz3 has a remarkableamount of Balkan hunter-gatherer-related ancestry (19±3%) and no significant CHG ancestryand could very well also be someone from beyond the borders of the Empire from Europe" From Lazaridis et al. 2022


What do you think? Is this a probable route?
Click to expand...
The Bursa boy is an interesting one. He has Y3120, he is dated around 820 CE and has a significant Balkan HG (“Iron Gates”) autosomal sign. If his Y3120 is indeed basal he might have been a recent partial descendant of those I2a guys that lived between the iron gates, the Carpathians, south Poland and east Germany before the Slavic expansion absorbed most of them. But if he is basal, you and him have a common ancestor way further back in time.
 
Kuivamaa said:
The Bursa boy is an interesting one. He has Y3120, he is dated around 820 CE and has a significant Balkan HG (“Iron Gates”) autosomal sign. If his Y3120 is indeed basal he might have been a recent partial descendant of those I2a guys that lived between the iron gates, the Carpathians, south Poland and east Germany before the Slavic expansion absorbed most of them. But if he is basal, you and him have a common ancestor way further back in time.
Click to expand...

Is his ending subclade really Y3120?
 
Kuivamaa said:
That’s the 1 million dollar question. The authors did feel the need to highlight his Balkan HG autosomal part so he probably stood out in general.
Click to expand...
Yeah, thought so.

Are there G25 coordinates for Balkan HG? Were they WHG, EHG or some other hunter-gatherers?

From what I saw Bursa sample is close to modern western Ukrainians in terms of genetic distance.
 
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