How much history did Christianity destroy?

imo The Title of this Thread has an opinionated and leading bias.
should have been: “How Much History did Religion Destroy”
Many religions are responsible for the eradication of knowledge, books, monuments, history.
Extremist Religious Groups are still Physically Destroying, and Bombing the History of Humanity, and They are Not Christians.
The extreme left is trying to remove statues and monuments in the United States too.
 
2-3 generations ago, the Catholic Church was still quite powefull and dominant here and very paternalistic, trying to controll everybodies mind and habits
my parents generation got liberated from that, and there is some resentment about the way the church have ruled all these generations, that is very natural
and sometimes it is frightening to see all those people conditioned and biassed by Islam coming in who are so convinced about there own beliefs and with whom reasoning seems very difficult


A lot of it in Europe was indeed "political". My father was very "anti-clerical". Like a lot of Italian men he stopped attending church when he was confirmed. That caused me a lot of anguish when I was young because I was a very religious little girl. When I wanted, at the age of 12-14 or so, to be a Carmelite I thought he'd have a heart attack. :) Then I discovered boys and gave him different worries.

Still, if you had asked him, he would have said he believed in God and was a Catholic. It's something my American friends don't understand.

Things are totally different in the U.S. because the Church has never held political power. It makes it easier to be religious, if you get what I mean, because there's not so much baggage from the past.

There's still resentment, however, but the cause is different. It's usually because of the rules controlling sexuality (especially homosexuality), divorce, contraception, etc. Meanwhile, while people weren't looking because they are now out of the church and don't even speak to people who are still "in", the emphasis changed in the church. No priest is going to tell you it's a sin to use contraception, the rules for annulment are so loose that it's almost like divorce, the only real "sticking" point is the practice of homosexuality and abortion. I don't think the latter will ever change.

There's an awful lot of what we call "cafeteria style" Catholics. They "choose" which rules they will take seriously: yes to the central tenants of the faith, and no to the sort of "lifestyle" rules with which they disagree.

I'm of two minds whether the Church is being smart in loosening some of these rules, although I approve of the end results. Certain people would be satisfied with nothing less than a total acceptance of all kinds of sexual expression, third term abortions, etc. Even then, I think it's questionable whether they would come back to the church. The proof is what has happened to the "mainstream", liberal, Protestant congregations, which are disappearing. The growth is in the conservative Protestant churches.

Among the very conservative Catholics, of whom I know a few, there are those who believe in the "Faithful Remnant" evolution or de-evolution of the Church, similar to what happened with the Hebrews. The true believers will remain, and the rest will fall away. I think that's probably what will happen.

Another phenomenon is that very conservative Catholics sometimes become Evangelical Protestant Christians because the Church has gotten too "soft".

As to the saints listed above, they are not the saints who are or were "in" people's lives in the modern era, if that makes sense. When I was growing up it was Francis of Assisi, St. Therese, the Little Flower, St. Joseph, maybe St. Bernadette, St. Jude, Mary, of course, especially through her appearances at Lourdes, Fatima and "Yugoslavia".

The only questionable one, imo, is St. Anthony of Padua, who was actually Portuguese, a disciple of St. Francis. He was very popular with older Italians. I think he's still popular in the Portuguese and Spanish speaking world. All that was emphasized to us was his piety, humility, and his love of the Christ Child. Later on, however, I discovered that he did a lot of preaching against the Italian "Cathars". Francis should have stuck to his original instinct to be suspicious of oratory and too much intellectualization of faith. That's apart from the fact that I think the Cathar "religion" was a crock.

This is what devotion to St. Francis was all about:

"Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me bring love.
Where there is offense, let me bring pardon.
Where there is discord, let me bring union.
Where there is error, let me bring truth.
Where there is doubt, let me bring faith.
Where there is despair, let me bring hope.
Where there is darkness, let me bring your light.
Where there is sadness, let me bring joy.
O Master, let me not seek as much
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love,
for it is in giving that one receives,
it is in self-forgetting that one finds,
it is in pardoning that one is pardoned,
it is in dying that one is raised to eternal life."

Prayer to St. Jude, also a biggie when I was growing up, and still now. Danny Thomas named his hospital for children after him.

Most holy Apostle, Saint Jude Thaddeus, friend of Jesus, I place myself in your care at this difficult time. Help me know that I need not face my troubles alone. Please join me in my need, asking God to send me: consolation in my sorrow, courage in my fear, and healing in the midst of my suffering. Ask our loving Lord to fill me with the grace to accept whatever may lie ahead for me and my loved ones, and to strengthen my faith in God's healing powers. Thank you, Saint Jude Thaddeus, for the promise of hope you hold out to all who believe, and inspire me to give this gift of hope to others as it has been given to me.
 
it is not only History,
but also science

for example how many mathematicians, were lost,
how many leathers palimpsista become books for prayers,
if the ancient word had produced antikythera mechanism with such accuracy, and tottaly different aproach (eclipse can be the route of a moving circle center, not a 2 center shape)
and found that steam power can move tones of stone, Ηρων Heron of Alexandreia, milleniums before james Watt,
and dare to write down βελοποιικα Balistic science
think what humanity has lost, in science,
and how much long took to regain it.

from Heron to James Watt is 1650 years about.
from heron to Alhacen is about 1000 years.

The 'restart' of scientif speach away from religious criteria
took more than a millenium,
and just consider were the 'humanity' is moving and achieved the last 300 years,

Yet some thinks are still under the morale of humans, not religion,
and is needed so.
bur IS MOVING
 
IronHorse :)

The thing is, where I'm from its dangerous to criticize religion in public, in our case because extreme religious people take control, I don't know if this is or was the case whenever religious people took control.

I know, however, that there is no direct relationship between the two, and religious people can be quite tolerant, LeBrok for example :) and a friend of mine here in Saudi.


I agree with you,
In Islamic world the religious 'casta' is very high,
and not only high, but also believe that they know everything,
only they, can explain phenomena,
they consider them shelves Doctors mechanics etc etc,

the most stupid thing I heard the last years
is that driving affects the woman ovaries,
and offcourse that was not taken serious,
so women can drive at Arab world.

Do not worry, we had such 'casta' in Europe too.
 
I agree with you,
In Islamic world the religious 'casta' is very high,
and not only high, but also believe that they know everything,
only they, can explain phenomena,
they consider them shelves Doctors mechanics etc etc,
the most stupid thing I heard the last years
is that driving affects the woman ovaries,
and offcourse that was not taken serious,
so women can drive at Arab world.
Do not worry, we had such 'casta' in Europe too.

some also believe female circumsision protects the male who has sex with her from diseases

but the worst is that many despise the kuffar, the non-Muslims
they believe they are superior for being Muslim

and they see 'blasphemy' as a serious crime

this preacher at least tries to get things straight :

 
imo The Title of this Thread has an opinionated and leading bias.
should have been: “How Much History did Religion Destroy”
Many religions are responsible for the eradication of knowledge, books, monuments, history.
Extremist Religious Groups are still Physically Destroying, and Bombing the History of Humanity, and They are Not Christians.
The extreme left is trying to remove statues and monuments in the United States too.

I went with this title because Islam and the rest destroyed history in their own regions whereas I think christianity was most relevant in Europe and since this is eupedia and the main focus of member here is discovering europes origins and history, i was wondering about this focus. Many books and history that did survive from the past did so in christian monasteries, so i wonder were they unbiased in what they saved, are there still things in the vaticans archives, etc.

My personal experience with the serbian orthodox church is such that it is a totally political institution that in many cases does not hesitate to lie for political gain. Many leaders are very corrupt and outright lie about so many things in the recent past, that i wonder how trustworthy they are at all about things further down the line.
 
I think it will be fruitful for objectivity of a european historical record if we bare in mind that a lot of the historical sources in the last 2 millenium might be very selective and influenced by church politics
 
IronHorse :)
LOL, that's the image I have in my head. Don't know why. Did you have a horse in your avatar in the past?

The thing is, where I'm from its dangerous to criticize religion in public, in our case because extreme religious people take control, I don't know if this is or was the case whenever religious people took control.

I know, however, that there is no direct relationship between the two, and religious people can be quite tolerant, LeBrok for example :) and a friend of mine here in Saudi.
I don't see much connection either, but obviously the Christians of Eupedia feel threatened.
 
I thought LeBrok was a Catholic, I misunderstood a reference in some other thread, sorry LeBrok.
Yeah, I used to be for half of my life,... till I gathered all the relevant information to prove myself wrong. My mother says that I'm just lazy and don't want to go to church and pray every day, that's why.
I still hope I'm wrong and there is life after death... Just can't find the smallest empirical clue to keep my hopes up.
 
(yes, being an atheists is also a kind of personal conviction that one holds to be true even though there is no empirical proof, that is, ...). For people who have no faith and rely on evidences to form their opinions, ....
It is in your writing already, you just don't allow it to settle in, like an impure thought, or counter intuitive phenomena.
I went through it myself...

I know it is off topic, but there was not even one atheist accusing religious people of moral corruption, when this off topic started. My response was dictated by straw arguments of some members attacking atheist morality, basically with thick brush across the board for no apparent reason, like we are the worst race on this planet.
 
A lot of it in Europe was indeed "political". My father was very "anti-clerical". Like a lot of Italian men he stopped attending church when he was confirmed. That caused me a lot of anguish when I was young because I was a very religious little girl. When I wanted, at the age of 12-14 or so, to be a Carmelite I thought he'd have a heart attack. :) Then I discovered boys and gave him different worries.

Still, if you had asked him, he would have said he believed in God and was a Catholic. It's something my American friends don't understand.

Things are totally different in the U.S. because the Church has never held political power. It makes it easier to be religious, if you get what I mean, because there's not so much baggage from the past.

There's still resentment, however, but the cause is different. It's usually because of the rules controlling sexuality (especially homosexuality), divorce, contraception, etc. Meanwhile, while people weren't looking because they are now out of the church and don't even speak to people who are still "in", the emphasis changed in the church. No priest is going to tell you it's a sin to use contraception, the rules for annulment are so loose that it's almost like divorce, the only real "sticking" point is the practice of homosexuality and abortion. I don't think the latter will ever change.

There's an awful lot of what we call "cafeteria style" Catholics. They "choose" which rules they will take seriously: yes to the central tenants of the faith, and no to the sort of "lifestyle" rules with which they disagree.

I'm of two minds whether the Church is being smart in loosening some of these rules, although I approve of the end results. Certain people would be satisfied with nothing less than a total acceptance of all kinds of sexual expression, third term abortions, etc. Even then, I think it's questionable whether they would come back to the church. The proof is what has happened to the "mainstream", liberal, Protestant congregations, which are disappearing. The growth is in the conservative Protestant churches.

Among the very conservative Catholics, of whom I know a few, there are those who believe in the "Faithful Remnant" evolution or de-evolution of the Church, similar to what happened with the Hebrews. The true believers will remain, and the rest will fall away. I think that's probably what will happen.

Another phenomenon is that very conservative Catholics sometimes become Evangelical Protestant Christians because the Church has gotten too "soft".

As to the saints listed above, they are not the saints who are or were "in" people's lives in the modern era, if that makes sense. When I was growing up it was Francis of Assisi, St. Therese, the Little Flower, St. Joseph, maybe St. Bernadette, St. Jude, Mary, of course, especially through her appearances at Lourdes, Fatima and "Yugoslavia".

The only questionable one, imo, is St. Anthony of Padua, who was actually Portuguese, a disciple of St. Francis. He was very popular with older Italians. I think he's still popular in the Portuguese and Spanish speaking world. All that was emphasized to us was his piety, humility, and his love of the Christ Child. Later on, however, I discovered that he did a lot of preaching against the Italian "Cathars". Francis should have stuck to his original instinct to be suspicious of oratory and too much intellectualization of faith. That's apart from the fact that I think the Cathar "religion" was a crock.

This is what devotion to St. Francis was all about:

"Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me bring love.
Where there is offense, let me bring pardon.
Where there is discord, let me bring union.
Where there is error, let me bring truth.
Where there is doubt, let me bring faith.
Where there is despair, let me bring hope.
Where there is darkness, let me bring your light.
Where there is sadness, let me bring joy.
O Master, let me not seek as much
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love,
for it is in giving that one receives,
it is in self-forgetting that one finds,
it is in pardoning that one is pardoned,
it is in dying that one is raised to eternal life."

Prayer to St. Jude, also a biggie when I was growing up, and still now. Danny Thomas named his hospital for children after him.

Most holy Apostle, Saint Jude Thaddeus, friend of Jesus, I place myself in your care at this difficult time. Help me know that I need not face my troubles alone. Please join me in my need, asking God to send me: consolation in my sorrow, courage in my fear, and healing in the midst of my suffering. Ask our loving Lord to fill me with the grace to accept whatever may lie ahead for me and my loved ones, and to strengthen my faith in God's healing powers. Thank you, Saint Jude Thaddeus, for the promise of hope you hold out to all who believe, and inspire me to give this gift of hope to others as it has been given to me.

My grandfather was also very anti-clerical, and was not too keen on religion. My grandmother (his wife), and great-grandmother were religious however. So were my other grand parents. Though, I don't think my other grandfather was that devout. My parents on the other hand are more like cafeteria Catholics, and my mother has expressed before that she's skeptical about religion. The only time you will ever see them in church is if there's a wedding, or a christening. I consider myself agnostic, but culturally catholic. Despite the fact that I don't follow the religion anymore, I think it has taught me good lessons about morality. This is something that is unfortunately being lost in society, with the decline of religiosity. Without moral guidance, we are seeing a decay of long-held values and traditions. Only to be replaced with narcissism, greed, perversion, and decadence.
 
Yeah, I used to be for half of my life,... till I gathered all the relevant information to prove myself wrong. My mother says that I'm just lazy and don't want to go to church and pray every day, that's why.
I still hope I'm wrong and there is life after death... Just can't find the smallest empirical clue to keep my hopes up.


But there is life after death,
I do not know if lasts second or millenias or eternity,
but in underworld there is life,
as also you will be judged,
both by living and dead.
 
Theon and Pappous

maybe the most collective of ancient world mathematician

part of their work is in Arabic,
saved by the Arabs,

what Diocletian and Theodosius did
is a crime against Humanity by closing both Bibliotheque and Mouseion

what some hidden people inside monotheistic religions did
is remarkable,
either inside christianity, with Greek
either inside Islam with Arabic

Pappous collection is fantastic, and big part is rewriten in Arabic
Theon work also
Even osteomachion of Archimedes palimpsista is in Arabic language,
the rebirth of Mathematics was restarted by early Islam and Arabs,

yet they also fell to the 'trap' that every monotheistic religion puts to the faithfull



for the story

that is the today Chinese tansgram

q.jpg



we all that is from China,


but that is found in Arabic language script with Greek/byzantine language palimpsista

The osteomachion or stomachion
Loculus.GIF


etc,

just think what Hypateia could left behind.

PS
i mostly speak about Alexandreia cause I am more familiar
But i know that at Mediolana italy something such had happened too
the same era by same religion,
 
I think it's inevitable that any power structure and ideology will destroy old history to make place for new to be honest.
 
I think it's inevitable that any power structure and ideology will destroy old history to make place for new to be honest.

I think that's right, at least in the past.

In my view, all human institutions are corrupt because human beings are corrupt.

I should perhaps also clarify what I think is a bit of a strong man argument. I don't believe that the majority of Catholics who have problems with the Church's rules about homosexuality, birth control, divorce, abortion etc. are "immoral". I have problems with a lot of it myself, with everything, actually, other than the rules against abortion, and even there I'm ambivalent about first trimester abortions. They, we, just view these things differently than does the Church.

At the same time, I do believe that when rules like those memorialized in The Ten Commandments are stripped of their connection with God, sin, the hereafter, it is inevitable that with time and new generations the breaking of those rules is easier for a lot although not all people.
 
I think that's right, at least in the past.

In my view, all human institutions are corrupt because human beings are corrupt.

I should perhaps also clarify what I think is a bit of a strong man argument. I don't believe that the majority of Catholics who have problems with the Church's rules about homosexuality, birth control, divorce, abortion etc. are "immoral". I have problems with a lot of it myself, with everything, actually, other than the rules against abortion, and even there I'm ambivalent about first trimester abortions. They, we, just view these things differently than does the Church.

At the same time, I do believe that when rules like those memorialized in The Ten Commandments are stripped of their connection with God, sin, the hereafter, it is inevitable that with time and new generations the breaking of those rules is easier for a lot although not all people.

I agree,

I think the fundamental moral teachings of acceptance, and trying to find goodness in people are what guides them to those sentiments.

I fear that in the coming generations, if more people abandon their faith and are not brought up with those fundamental teachings, the society will become crueler, and less forgiving.
 
it is around 1700 AD

a priest with name ABBA MICHEL FOURMONT
comes to Greece.
to demolish the ancient Sparta,

a place abbandoned but untached even by time and earthquakes,
is vandalised by 60 followers of Abba michel Fourmont

17 centuries Monotheistic Supremacy
the wrath against paganism did not stoped,

he proudly writes
'I scattered the ashes of king Agesilaos'
something that not even war enemies of Sparta did not do at war,

at 1730 he writes to the Francais ambassadeur in Constantinopolis

'I forced the city to pay for the sins of her ancestors'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Fourmont



JUST IMAGINE WHAT HE HAD FOUND AND HE HAD DESTROYED!!!!!!!
 
I agree,

I think the fundamental moral teachings of acceptance, and trying to find goodness in people are what guides them to those sentiments.

I fear that in the coming generations, if more people abandon their faith and are not brought up with those fundamental teachings, the society will become crueler, and less forgiving.

there always will be another story

 
Yeah, I used to be for half of my life,... till I gathered all the relevant information to prove myself wrong. My mother says that I'm just lazy and don't want to go to church and pray every day, that's why.
I still hope I'm wrong and there is life after death... Just can't find the smallest empirical clue to keep my hopes up.

Ah, I feel the same, I do hope that there is meaning in our existence, and I did love God and faith ... but evidence pointed to the human origin of the Quran because of the scientific and philosophical flaws in it, and so I left my faith. I was 16 at the time.
 

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