How CHG did look like?

[Thrry]

I've seen reconstructions about WHG, yamnayas, ANE, neolithic farmers, etc but I haven't see yet a reconstruction of the CHG

 

[Stuvanè]

If the origin of this ancestral group in the Caucasus-Iranian area were actually ascertained, I'd bet with sufficient peace of mind that their members looked very close to the current peoples of those regions. Instinctively I'm thinking of guys like Chechen President Dudaev or Freddie Mercury, who was of Pharsi ancestry



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[dosas]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Georgians are the modern group with the highest CHG component.

So, I guess, they would probably look similar to these people:

 

[Stuvanè]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Georgians are the modern group with the highest CHG component.

So, I guess, they would probably look similar to these people:

I agree.
Pretty beautiful, amazing CHG ladies [emoji6] [emoji3]

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[bicicleur 2]

according to Laziridis CHG = Dzudzuana admixed with ANE
and Dzudzuana = WHG admixed with Basal Eurasian
Dzudzuana is the major component in Natufian and in Anatolian Neolithic

 

[dosas]

Just a bit of advice: use Iran HG/neolithic and CHG as different components.

Iran_Neo doesn't seem to eat up any of their CHG component (Imer), it seems to dig into the Natufian.

Also, I don't take seriously the pseudoscience of craniometry classification, I am sorry.

 

[kingdavid]

Iran_Neo doesn't seem to eat up any of their CHG component (Imer), it seems to dig into the Natufian.

Also, I don't take seriously the pseudoscience of craniometry classification, I am sorry.

you are a smart man

 

[Ailchu]

according to Laziridis CHG = Dzudzuana admixed with ANE
and Dzudzuana = WHG admixed with Basal Eurasian
Dzudzuana is the major component in Natufian and in Anatolian Neolithic

Dzudzuana= WHG admixed with Basal Eurasian or more like Basal Eurasian admixed with WHG?

 

[dosas]

so CHG wouldn't look exactly like Georgians (as opposed to what you claimed earlier on). We don't have complete CHG skulls, so Maykop might have been the closest approximation.

I didn't claim that they looked exactly like Georgians. I wrote and I quote (you can just scroll up to verify) that they would probably look similar to these people.

Better brush up your reading comprehension skills. And I really don't care about your personal investment in this or for your obvious predispositions (i.e. craniometry classification of humans made by racist ideologues).

 

[bicicleur 2]

Dzudzuana= WHG admixed with Basal Eurasian or more like Basal Eurasian admixed with WHG?

if I remember well, Dzudzuana is 72 % WHG + 28 % Basal Eurasian

 

[etrusco]

if I remember well, Dzudzuana is 72 % WHG + 28 % Basal Eurasian

Yes that is what is reported there. But I wonder who was this WHG population? Does that mean that Gravettians were already WHG like ( Villabruna like) . Because Dzudzuana is something like 10000 years older than Villabruna IIRC.

Because also Anatolian hunter gather were modeled the same way AHG= 75% WHG + 25% Basal.

So it seems all western eurasian populations were one way or the other WHG derived because also

Natufians= 50% WHG+ 50% Basal and
EHG= 40/50% WHG and the rest ANE

 

[bicicleur 2]

Yes that is what is reported there. But I wonder who was this WHG population? Does that mean that Gravettians were already WHG like ( Villabruna like) . Because Dzudzuana is something like 10000 years older than Villabruna IIRC.
Because also Anatolian hunter gather were modeled the same way AHG= 75% WHG + 25% Basal.
So it seems all western eurasian populations were one way or the other WHG derived because also
Natufians= 50% WHG+ 50% Basal and
EHG= 40/50% WHG and the rest ANE

the Vestonice gravettian cluster was admixed with Sungir-like DNA
there must have been gravettians who remained unadmixed WHG, because their descendants, the Villabruna was unadmixed WHG

IMO, WHG = haplo IJ
after split, I = Gravettian, WHG in it's unadmaxid form (Villabruna)

I think the IJ split happened in Transcaucasia, which was inhabited by modern humans since 42 ka.
From there I went to Mezmaiskaya Cave, NW Caucasus, which was inhabited by modern humans since 39 ka.

In Transcaucasia, J was also WHG, it first admixed with Basal Eurasian (26 ka Dzudzuana) and later with ANE to form the 13 ka epigravettian Satsurblia CHG

In eastern Europe, R1b-L754 ANE admixed with the pure, unadmixed WHG to form EHG

 

[Ailchu]

the Vestonice gravettian cluster was admixed with Sungir-like DNA
there must have been gravettians who remained unadmixed WHG, because their descendants, the Villabruna was unadmixed WHG

IMO, WHG = haplo IJ
after split, I = Gravettian, WHG in it's unadmaxid form (Villabruna)

I think the IJ split happened in Transcaucasia, which was inhabited by modern humans since 42 ka.
From there I went to Mezmaiskaya Cave, NW Caucasus, which was inhabited by modern humans since 39 ka.

In Transcaucasia, J was also WHG, it first admixed with Basal Eurasian (26 ka Dzudzuana) and later with ANE to form the 13 ka epigravettian Satsurblia CHG

In eastern Europe, R1b-L754 ANE admixed with the pure, unadmixed WHG to form EHG

so basically all modern westeurasian populations are heavy WHG admixed?

 

[etrusco]

the Vestonice gravettian cluster was admixed with Sungir-like DNA
there must have been gravettians who remained unadmixed WHG, because their descendants, the Villabruna was unadmixed WHG

IMO, WHG = haplo IJ
after split, I = Gravettian, WHG in it's unadmaxid form (Villabruna)

I think the IJ split happened in Transcaucasia, which was inhabited by modern humans since 42 ka.
From there I went to Mezmaiskaya Cave, NW Caucasus, which was inhabited by modern humans since 39 ka.

In Transcaucasia, J was also WHG, it first admixed with Basal Eurasian (26 ka Dzudzuana) and later with ANE to form the 13 ka epigravettian Satsurblia CHG

In eastern Europe, R1b-L754 ANE admixed with the pure, unadmixed WHG to form EHG

maybe also R1b comes from the WHG......

 

[etrusco]

so basically all modern westeurasian populations are heavy WHG admixed?

if linguistic science will ever prove there is a nostratic proto language I think we maybe found the founding population.....

 

[kingdavid]

maybe also R1b comes from the WHG......

you might have a point
the villabruna dude himself was r1b ...
but from a distant branch from that found in modern day europeans today

 

[MOESAN]

I didn't claim that they looked exactly like Georgians. I wrote and I quote (you can just scroll up to verify) that they would probably look similar to these people.

Better brush up your reading comprehension skills. And I really don't care about your personal investment in this or for your obvious predispositions (i.e. craniometry classification of humans made by racist ideologues).

Who is racist, did you say? observation is one thing, classification an other thing. Classification was a try to understand the composition and story of population, at those times, and all the scholars invested then in this kind of research were not racists. (very often they were pluridisciplinary), if a lot was naive enough.

 

[dosas]

Who is racist, did you say? observation is one thing, classification an other thing. Classification was a try to understand the composition and story of population, at those times, and all the scholars invested then in this kind of research were not racists. (very often they were pluridisciplinary), if a lot was naive enough.

Sorry, physical anthropology based on craniometry readings and classification of humans in 'races' (i.e. alpine, med, nordic, armenoid, and the rest of the jargon of racialism) is pure pseudo-scientific racism, constructed to provide the pillars of white supremacist theories.

Coon's own work was used to justify the segregation and suppression of civil rights of African Americans until the Civil Rights movement put an end to it in the 1960s, and Coon himself was forced to resign from the American Association of Anthropologists.

Not my problem you can't see how all of this is nothing but racist garbage.

 

[Angela]

Sorry, physical anthropology based on craniometry readings and classification of humans in 'races' (i.e. alpine, med, nordic, armenoid, and the rest of the jargon of racialism) is pure pseudo-scientific racism, constructed to provide the pillars of white supremacist theories.

Coon's own work was used to justify the segregation and suppression of civil rights of African Americans until the Civil Rights movement put an end to it in the 1960s, and Coon himself was forced to resign from the American Association of Anthropologists.

Not my problem you can't see how all of this is nothing but racist garbage.

Change your freaking tone, and stop with the insults or you're going to get a heap of infractions. Moesan is a respected member here.

You can express your disbelief in traditional physical anthropology in a civil way.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Was Villabruna 1 really unadmixed? He had an ANE yDNA lineage. I would have thought that grotta continenza would be a better example of an unadmixed WHG.
"sample": "ITA_Villabruna:Average",
"fit": 3.8737,
"ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso": 91.67,
"RUS_AfontovaGora3": 8.33

This is a better fit than using Grotta Continenza only.

"sample": "ITA_Villabruna:Average",
"fit": 5.5318,
"ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso": 100



Speaking of J, just to be sure, is there an argument or evidence which excludes basal Eurasians as a source?

It's not about the Villabruna sample, it is about the Villabruna cluster, which is 80 % haplo I2.

check the Fu 2016 paper
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature17993

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature17993