Haplogroup I in Finland

My last comment sounded awkward regarding the sea level changes... of course those didn't occur in 300 A.D.

Please read the previous debates on this topic to get up to speed. And relax about you I1 status... we kick butt no matter what spot on the globe we live on.
 
nordicwarbler said:
I'm confused... are you saying I'm a Finnish nationalist? I can assure you I'm not.
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I wasn't referring to you.


nordicwarbler said:
There are earlier threads where this subject is addressed in depth. The chink in the armor of the I1 Jutland/Northern Germany origin is that no ancient I1 remains have been found there (prior to about 300 A.D. or so). This could be because of how these tribes treated their deceased or because of the ocean level changes in these areas (which was extreme and would impact boat loving I1 more than other groups).

The Denmark y-DNA studies should answer these questions, hopefully.
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Agreed. It's always good to have a certain criticism (and also some ceticism) to any theory. However, I doubt very seriously whether the haplotype I1's origin being in Finland. Sounds a bit far fetched and delusional to be true. Considering all the origin and route that the I has made to reach to the North.

Here an interesting argument:
Despite its young TMRCA, this clade could have its origin in a Mesolithic migration of Haplogroup I* from South-Eastern Europe about 5,000 BC. This is by no means certain. Although we have found no-one alive today carrying just one or two of the many markers that define I1, each one of these markers may define a lineage that has died out in the male line.

So all that is left is the healthy lineage I1, which appears to pop up out of nowhere in southern Jutland about 2,200 BC and is found today in Scandinavia and among descendants of the Vikings.

There is no trail of earlier clades from South-Eastern Europe. So in theory Haplogroup I could have arrived from any southern Ice Age refuge as soon as Scandinavia was left habitable by the shrinking glaciers.

It is only the fact that the spread of Haplogroup I overall leans towards Eastern Europe that has inclined researchers to look south-east for its Ice Age refuge. An alternative explanation proferred by some geneticists is that I1 is the male companion to mtDNA U5b1b1a, which seems to have travelled in the Mesolithic from Iberia to Scandinavia.
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http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/haplogroupi.shtml
 
gyms said:
Y-haplogroup I1 is Finnugric!
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It pre date any 'modern' ethno linguistic origins. Though, it is found in all places invaded by the ancient Germanic peoples.



Professor Nordtvedt last 2013 chart on spread of I and I1:

3JEYtfw.png
 
I know that mtdna h and v migrated from Iberia to Scandinavia but heavily doubt U5 did, maybe though I'm not a geneticist so I can't say yes or no.maybe what the study cited says is true, maybe I1 was long ago during gravettian culture more widespread in continental Europe but some LGM type winter disaster destroyed them other than the survivors who some who ended up in Scandinavia but I doubt it. At the same time it would make sense considering hg I came to Scandinavia via continental Europe anyways
 
Wow can you look at that... If this map is indeed correct we can draw so many conclusions from it. So Bosnian-herzegovinans I-M26 arrived to Sardinia by crossing over to Italy .it arrived to Iberia afterwards, also some how ending up in England,where it left negligible levels. It neither dominated in Italy nor Spain even though lots of the I in Spain is of this variety it must amount to like 4-5% of spaniards. It dominated in Sardinia though, only. The red L233 branch moved from Balkans through continental Europe to Netherlands then England. It must be an ancient unsuccessful movement destroyed by LGM, a negligible branch. Most of these branches must be found at negligible levels, destroyed by the LGM. Also the green lines going across Italy that's a weird branch that must own very low levels of men from those countries , weird. Even at low frequencies , English French and Spanish and definitely Sardinians have I-M26. There are also other groups of I2 or I that are odd like the English I-M284 or I-L38 which "hooked" onto Celtic cultures near the la tene culture area and are found at very very low frequencies in the Rhineland and British isles. Also I-M284 is linked to the la tene culture and before that to Romanian Dacian tribes that where I-M223 positive. I-M223 of which I-M284 is a subclade, is found at its highest frequencies circa 4% of Germans, Dutch, Belgians and Danes, this branch as I noted above came from Dacian tribes and subsequently began moving towards Czech Republic, some of it even ending up in France at low frequencies.
 
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Balder,look at the Swiderian Culture : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiderian_culture and post-Swiderian Culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsa_culture . "The “history of population of haplogroup I1 is more complicated than a simple expansion from Scandinavia, and it may include ancient relations between the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern Europe and the ancestors of German-speaking Scandinavians.” The Russian journal of genetic genealogi: http://aaronjhill.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/the-russian-journal-of-genetic-genealogy-%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F/ and don´t forget the Gravettian Culture!
 
Some of the balkanian I-M423 would migrate north to Poland becoming L-147 which would subsequently migrate to Moldova, rare parts of Ukraine and Croatia at low % . Note 12a is also found at higher frequencies I believe in Moldova. The L161 would migrate the opposite way as its brother 147, going through northern Germany ending up in England at low %. L38 is a weird branch that I cannot even being to explain. Very low levels for most of these bizarre I2 sub-branches some at much higher levels though such as M423 of course. Also there is the I-M227 which is directly I1. It has been found in a few polish and Austrian samples but overall it's found highest at slightly under 1% of certain Slavic and Uralic people's.
 
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gyms said:
Balder,look at the Swiderian Culture : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiderian_culture and post-Swiderian Culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsa_culture . "The “history of population of haplogroup I1 is more complicated than a simple expansion from Scandinavia, and it may include ancient relations between the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern Europe and the ancestors of German-speaking Scandinavians.” The Russian journal of genetic genealogi: http://aaronjhill.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/the-russian-journal-of-genetic-genealogy-русская-версия/ and don´t forget the Gravettian Culture!
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The Gravettian culture no longer existed at the time of the repopulation of Finno- Scandinavia. Circa 11000 to 13000 years ago, the prodominant culture was the Magdelenian in west Europe, and was most likely the one to migrate north for the initial repopulation, the Gravettian period was about 20000 to 28000 YBP just before the LGM.
 
Yes,I know that.I am talking about a possible Connection between the Gravettian-Epigravettian-Swiderian Cultures. "Around 32,000, the Gravettian culture appears in the Crimean Mountains (southern Ukraine).[8][9] Around 22,000 BCE, the Solutrean and Gravettian cultures reach the southwestern region of Europe. The Gravettian technology/culture has been theorized to have come with migrations of people from the Middle East, Anatolia, and the Balkans. A theory suggests they carried the Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) but scientists have failed to recover Y-DNA of that age. The cultures might be linked with the transitional cultures mentioned before, because their techniques have some similarities and are both very different from Aurignacian ones but this issue is thus far very obscure. The Gravettian soon disappears from southwestern Europe, with the notable exception of the Mediterranean coasts of Iberia. The Gravettian culture also appears in the Caucasus and the Zagros mountains."
 
There's alot of I1 in Russia. Further SNP testing will be instumental in determining the age of these subclades-- and this will help us determine the route(s) travelled.

We need more data points in able to prove the path taken to Scandinavia. With the on-going research in Denmark (archeological) and as more precise SNP testing is performed (all over, but especially in Russia and Germany)... we will have a better idea of historical movements of I1.
 
gyms said:
Yes,I know that.I am talking about a possible Connection between the Gravettian-Epigravettian-Swiderian Cultures. "Around 32,000, the Gravettian culture appears in the Crimean Mountains (southern Ukraine).[8][9] Around 22,000 BCE, the Solutrean and Gravettian cultures reach the southwestern region of Europe. The Gravettian technology/culture has been theorized to have come with migrations of people from the Middle East, Anatolia, and the Balkans. A theory suggests they carried the Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) but scientists have failed to recover Y-DNA of that age. The cultures might be linked with the transitional cultures mentioned before, because their techniques have some similarities and are both very different from Aurignacian ones but this issue is thus far very obscure. The Gravettian soon disappears from southwestern Europe, with the notable exception of the Mediterranean coasts of Iberia. The Gravettian culture also appears in the Caucasus and the Zagros mountains."
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Ah ok, I failed to understand the connection in your initial post. It would be very interesting if your theory is true, unfourtunatley NW is right and the genetic evidence is lacking, but none the less very thought provoking connection.
 
gyms said:
Y-haplogroup I1 is Finnugric!
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Well, is it really so? :thinking:

I am I1-M253 and did my Big Y-700 last autumn. This SNP Tracker map shows my paternal lineage´s route to Finland via Scandinavia.



I-Y46754 kartta.jpg
 

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Balder: Thanks for that map, My ancestors are all from Sicily-Southern Italy. I just had my DNA done from National Geographic which gave me Y and M Dna, along with Neanderthal admixture, which Ancestry does not provide. Well, I have I-M223 (P78 clade), which is also I guess I2A2. Any theories on that clade in Italy. One explanation is that it is a hold over pre Ice age and was a major Y Haplogroup of the Western Hunter Gatherers. So if the WHG used Southern Europe as a refuge, it could have been a lineage that survived post ice-age in Southern Europe before the expansion of Early European Farmers. This explanation makes sense to me.

PS if there is a thread already started on Haplogroup I in Italy, let me know and I will move my question there. Thanks in advance. Still a little new here.
 
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