Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula

oreo_cookie said:
Similar to some groups of Greeks at least. Mainland Greece, even the Peloponnese, has historically documented and genetically verified Slavic influence. One paper that came out fairly recently found that Sicilians, at least, genetically overlap with the people of Crete. Dodecanese islanders, the most geographically outlying group, are more Anatolian though.
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If you're going to argue from papers, please provide the links and appropriate quotes so that your assertions can be verified. If you're going to argue from some other genetics source, please provide those links as well. I would advise against relying on 23andme data unless you have familiarized yourself with the reference populations being used for Greece and the Balkans in general. The choices made by 23andme have impacted the results for that area in a negative way, in my opinion. Also, individual results are in no way representative samples.

In either case, this is the kind of forum where you have to be prepared to present a logical argument.

As for Crete, I'm not at all surprised that it might overlap with an area of Italy considering both the pre-historic contacts between the two areas and the very long Italian domination of the island in the historic era, a domination that included settlement and documented intermarriage between Italians and the natives of Crete, and which may, to some degree, have "pulled" Crete even closer to Italy.

You might consider studying the history of the maritime Italian Republics as it concerns the Greek islands and other areas of the east if you have such an interest in Greek genetics. We got around, much like the Greeks themselves.

However, all of this is off-topic.

Now, you gentlemen must excuse me. Iberian ethnogenesis is not my main area of interest.
 
sparkey said:
The I2 typical of Crete is a different subclade than the I2 typical of North Greece. Although precise SNP and STR testing is very rare for Crete, last I looked, it seemed to be mainly I2c, as opposed to the I2a-Din typical of North Greece. From the few samples of I2c in Greece we actually have STRs for, it seems that I2c in Greece is also probably fairly recent. I personally still like Eupedia user haithabu's hypothesis that Cretan I2c represents movement of people within the Republic of Venice.
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Isn't I2c classified/named as Adriatic ?

In regards to Venetian crete ( candia ), it was the only colonial area of Venice that one could bring his wife and children ( apart from mainland Italy and istria).
If mixing with the locals was found, then nobility status was lost for thse venetians..........but that does not stop everyone once you found true love!
 
Angela said:
Had you truly read the study, and the material provided about the provenance of the samples, and understood the statistical analysis you would know that they discovered a cline in Italy with values ranging from those similar to the Swiss to those more similar to the Greeks.

Just what would satisfy you? A finding that northern Italians are really Germans in disguise? That is highly unlikely to happen.
Do you see northern Italians plotting in Bavaria somewhere on PCA plots? It's as ridiculous as Iberians thinking they plot in Ireland. The most important question, of course, is why do they want to...

(Also, I fail to see why a Neapolitan would be so interested in proving the Nordicity? of northern Italians. Goodness knows who any of you people really are...It's like being in a house of mirrors.)

This is off-topic, so I will keep it brief...there is no significant Slavic input in Italy. There is a bit in far northeastern Italy from whatever Slovenes etc. wandered over the border. If we know anything we know the R1a markers that can be used to track the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period. I have yet to see R1a 458 show up anywhere in Italy other than in the most miniscule percentages. As for the "Germanic" input, if we once again go by the generally accepted y haplogroups, i.e. "I1" and U-106, you are over-hyping their influence in Italy for whatever bizarre reasons.

However, as I said, this is an off-topic discussion which belongs on a thread about Italian genetics.
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They have discovered a cline within Italy, but this does not chage these 2 simple facts:

1. Southern Italians and Sardinians are oversampled.
2. There is no clear division, but a cline. So we can only supposed based on Y-dna haplotypes frequencies and genome wide analysis, that the Italians sharing more IBD blocks are Northerners.

Also I don't get why they have only included French Swiss, when most of the invaders were from North Eastern Europe.

PmiqF8C.png



Talking about Slavic haplogrups, I've found this map for the distribution of R1a M458.

iKndiPO.gif
 
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Sile said:
Isn't I2c classified/named as Adriatic ?
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Not really, although it does have some minor presence there. You're probably thinking of I2b-L415.
 
joeyc said:
They have discovered a cline within Italy, but this does not chage these 2 simple facts:

1. Southern Italians and Sardinians are oversampled.
2. There is no clear division, but a cline. So we can only supposed based on Y-dna haplotypes frequencies and genome wide analysis, that the Italians sharing more IBD blocks are Northerners.

Also I don't get why they have only included French Swiss, when most of the invaders were from North Eastern Europe.

fetchObject.action



Talking about Slavic haplogrups, I've found this map for the distribution of R1a M458.

M458.gif
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The inclusion of the french swiss is to do with centuries upon centuries of french intrusion into north west italy. Be it from Savoy region of france, where these people became the kings of Italy to franco-provenzal area which was Italian as recently as 120 years ago. Nice, Monaco , Menton where all italian ...........Garibaldi was born in Italian Nice
 
Angela said:
If you're going to argue from papers, please provide the links and appropriate quotes so that your assertions can be verified.
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http://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211.full

"The geographic proximity and partial overlap in the PCA of Crete and Sicily is also compatible with gene flow from Crete to Italy and to Southern Europe through population movements along the Southern Mediterranean coast."
 
Joey:There is no clear division, but a cline. So we can only supposed based on Y-dna haplotypes frequencies and genome wide analysis, that the Italians sharing more IBD blocks are Northerners.

Also I don't get why they have only included French Swiss, when most of the invaders were from North Eastern Europe.
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Everyone knows that there is a N/S cline in Italy. Cavalli Sforza talked about it thirty years ago. In more recent times, it's been obvious since Novembre et al. Whom are you trying to convince? That is different from talking about divisions. You are the only one talking about divisions.

You persist in talking about the Ralph and Coop paper when you obviously have not read it carefully. If you had, you would have seen this:
" Because of the large Swiss sample, we split this group into three by language: French-speaking (CHf), German-speaking (CHd), or other (CH). "

This talk about the oversampling of Sardinians and Southern Italians makes no sense to me. Sardinians are irrelevant to the genetic cline of Italy. In case you haven't heard they form their own cluster. They are chosen for sampling because some scholars are actually interested in learning more about the Neolithic expansion in Europe. Cavalli-Sforza included them in the HGDP samples because he knew their central importance in that regard three decades ago. As for southern Italians, the only place where a lot of them have been tested is on 23andme. I was talking about Ralph and Coop et al.

General R1a numbers which in that graph are at extremely low frequencies in Italy cannot be used to show the impact of the Slavic expansions anywhere, including Italy. I hate to break this to you, but there are a lot of varieties of R1a and some of them have nothing to do with the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period.

I will not respond to any more of your off-topic posts on this thread, and if you post an off topic comment again, I will report it. I shouldn't have responded at all. It's time that Maciamo's thread was given the respect that it merits.
 
Not to go even more off-topic than this thread already has, but how did Lebanon end up with 2% I1 and 1.5% 12b (as seen on the table on the Iberian Peninsula page)? That's more I1 and I2b than in Spain. I don't think the I1 and I2b in Lebanon could be (entirely) attributed to Western European crusaders, otherwise, there would be a lot more R1b in Lebanon.
 
Sile said:
Isn't I2c classified/named as Adriatic ?

In regards to Venetian crete ( candia ), it was the only colonial area of Venice that one could bring his wife and children ( apart from mainland Italy and istria).
If mixing with the locals was found, then nobility status was lost for thse venetians..........but that does not stop everyone once you found true love!
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I2c is Middle Eastern from various sources, found in Caucasus with a certain frequency.
 
Eldritch said:
I2c is Middle Eastern from various sources, found in Caucasus with a certain frequency.
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More specifically, I2c PF3881-, which currently constitutes 1 of the 3 major STR clusters in I2c, has a large Caucasian/Near Eastern presence, although the highest diversity of I2c as a whole is clearly in Europe (and the ancient Swedish sample Motala 2 seems to have carried it). Cretan I2c seems to indeed be I2c PF3881-.

What was this thread's topic again? Oh, right. I2c isn't significant in Iberia. Is that helpful? :)
 
The map for E-M81 is still wrong. Andalusia on the map appears mostly on the 10-20% shade, when it should be in the 4-5% :

Southern Spaniards n=1/62 1.6% Scozzari 2001.
Huelva, Andalusia n=5/167 2.99% Ambrosio 2010.
Huelva, Andalusia n=1/22 4.5% Flores et al.2004
Seville, Andalusia n=7/155 4.5% Flores et al.2004
Cadiz, Andalusia n=0/28 0.0% Flores et al.2004
Cordoba, Andalusia n=2/27 7.4% Flores et al.2004
Malaga, Andalusia n=3/26 11.5% Flores et al.2004
Andalusia East n=2/95 2.1% Adams et al.
Andalusia West n=10/73 13.7% Adams et al.
Andalusians n=2/37 5.4% (Capelli 2009) Bosch et al.
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Total West Andalusia : 23/445 = 5.17%
Total East Andalusia : 5/121 = 4.13%
Other Andalusia : 5/126 = 3.97%
TOTAL ANDALUSIA : 33/692 = 4.77%
 
Wilhelm I don't want to hijack the thread but do you think there was if at all genetic contribution from Spaniards on the Sephardis?
 
John Doe said:
Wilhelm I don't want to hijack the thread but do you think there was if at all genetic contribution from Spaniards on the Sephardis?
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A tiny bit off topic, but to me a small surprise was that Spanish N1c (cousin of South Baltic and cousin of Scandinavian) turned out to be Sephardi. Very low frequency.
 
John Doe said:
Wilhelm I don't want to hijack the thread but do you think there was if at all genetic contribution from Spaniards on the Sephardis?
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A little bit, there is some iberian-specific R1b on some sephardis, tho it's small (overall R1b in sefarads is about 10-15%).
 
Wilhelm said:
A little bit, there is some iberian-specific R1b on some sephardis, tho it's small (overall R1b in sefarads is about 10-15%).
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Okay thanks.
 
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