Fire Haired14
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What about Laz? Why do you only look at a select few admixtures?
Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula
What about Laz? Why do you only look at a select few admixtures?
What do the Laz have to do with Iberia ?
I have just made some considerable amendments to the Introduction and the Neolithic section of the article.
Fire Haired14
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It has to do with all Europeans, west Asians, and even Amerindians, Siberians, east Asians, etc., etc. A lot can be learned about Iberians outside of Dodecade.
oreo_cookie
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I have always suspected that genetic affinity to North Africa is mostly prehistoric, since there are also Iberian affinities in North Africa. Though that might also have to do with the Reconquista expelling even native Iberians who converted to Islam, to North Africa.
As for Romans, Phoenicians, Greeks I suspect none of them contributed substantially at all to Iberian genetics.
As for Romans, Phoenicians, Greeks I suspect none of them contributed substantially at all to Iberian genetics.
Angela
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We normally try not to rely on "suspicions" here. If you have scientific papers which have examined the issue specifically and concluded that this is the case, I'm sure we would all be interested in reading them. I think you will find that the work has not been done. In particular, there has been, to my knowledge, no in depth analysis of E-M81 at a sufficient level of resolution to decide how much came at what time, unless it's present in the paper I linked to upthread, which is behind a pay wall. Perhaps someone can get access for us.
oreo_cookie
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Actually, that conclusion is based in the link's conclusion from the original post. And I agree with it.
Don't mind him. There is also no evidence of Iberian admixture in North Africans, as the latter carry almost 0% R1b, and most of it is of Italic origin from the Romans.
Drac II
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As it usually happens with WikiPedia, this is a purely gratuitous claim. Whoever wrote that references no sources for such estimates that can be consulted. According to historian Corliss Konwiser Slack the Jewish population of "al-Andalus" (Islamic areas of Iberia) was about 1%:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7m...cent of the population of al-Andalus"&f=false
"One percent of the population of al-Andalus is estimated to have been Jewish, while the much-disputed Mozarabic and other Christian population numbers have been estimated at 30 percent. All of these groups were protected under Islamic law at the expense of a special tax."
According to Jewish historian Raphael Patai, using the highest estimates known to him, the total population of Jews in all Spain was about 2-3%:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6j...ent of the total population of Spain"&f=false
"...Jews constituted 2.7 percent of the total population of Spain"
According to the authors of "Western Civilization: Beyond the Boundaries" the total population of Jews in all Iberia was around 2%:
http://books.google.com/books?id=2T... the population of Iberia was Jewish"&f=false
"...perhaps 2 percent of the population of Iberia was Jewish..."
Jews in Iberia were even fewer in number than the Arabs and Berbers, and the highest estimates for these two groups are around 10%, the lowest around 5%. So I find it rather implausible that Jews were at least 7% of the population of Spain.
oreo_cookie
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If the source of the admixture was more female-mediated, then it wouldn't show up in paternal haplogroups. Not saying this is what happened, but it'd make both admixture possible and low frequencies of R1b.
And actually, some of the maternal haplogroups found in Iberia are also found in North Africa, such as V.
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Also, just one other thing to point out, about this quote:
"The ancient Greeks had a relatively small impact on the Spanish gene pool, having only a few minor colonies in Catalonia and near Alicante. Modern Catalans have only 2% of haplogroup J2 and 3% of haplogroup E1b1b, the two main Greek lineages."
You might also want to look for Balkan I2 and R1a, both of which are present in Greeks although at lower frequencies. If neither of these is present in Catalonia, then it is possible that the source of J2 and E1b1b might be from the Neolithic (as they are present in low frequencies in many European countries) rather than directly Greek or even Roman.
"The ancient Greeks had a relatively small impact on the Spanish gene pool, having only a few minor colonies in Catalonia and near Alicante. Modern Catalans have only 2% of haplogroup J2 and 3% of haplogroup E1b1b, the two main Greek lineages."
You might also want to look for Balkan I2 and R1a, both of which are present in Greeks although at lower frequencies. If neither of these is present in Catalonia, then it is possible that the source of J2 and E1b1b might be from the Neolithic (as they are present in low frequencies in many European countries) rather than directly Greek or even Roman.
I find it hard to believe that Iberians expelled only females, but kept the males. It simply does not make sense.
Angela
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Angela
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You agree with the conclusion in what link?
This is what you said: "I have always suspected that genetic affinity to North Africa is mostly prehistoric, since there are also Iberian affinities in North Africa. Though that might also have to do with the Reconquista expelling even native Iberians who converted to Islam, to North Africa. "
This is the link to the paper:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...nticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=
These are the results and conclusion from the paper:
[h=4]Results[/h]A relatively homogenous Y-chromosome haplogroup composition was observed in the Zamora province. Haplogroups R1b1-P25 and I-M170, widespread in European populations, accounted for 64.9% of the total sample. Moreover, all of the observed African lineages, accounting for 10.2% of the total variability, belonged to haplogroups having Northwest African origin (E1b1b1b-M81, E1b1b1a-β-M78, and J1-M267).
[h=4]Conclusions[/h]No differences between regions or sub-structure due to geographical boundaries were detected. The specific Northwest African male lineages observed contrast with the mitochondrial DNA data, where the majority of African lineages were found to be sub-Saharan. This work made it possible to study the impact of recent historical events in the male gene pool in the province of Zamora in Spain. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 2014. © 2014 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.
So, the "African" mtDna in this province was mostly SSA in origin. The "African" y dna was North African in origin.
That in no way, shape, or form supports what you said, and it is absurd to claim that it does.
Angela
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Again, I fail to see the logic in any of this.
You cannot discuss y dna lineages without specifying the subclades involved. There are I2a clades which apparently were neolithicized very early, and became part of the Neolithic expansions in Europe. (perhaps from the Danube Gorges) That's why you find I2a clades in Sardinia and related clades in Iberia.
That has nothing to do with the I2a clades which form the majority of the I2a in the Balkans and Greece. There are any number of genetic genealogists who believe that those very young and homogenous clades may have arrived in the Balkans, including Greece, during the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period.
Why on earth would Greeks who colonized Spain in the first millennium B.C. have carried these markers?
So, this line of inquiry would prove nothing.
In addition, I'm as puzzled by J2 as everyone else. The fact remains that we have yet to find J2 in a neolithic context. Going by the current distributions however, and the history of the first millennium, I think we can be assured that the Greek colonists would have carried it.
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The link posted in the very first post, that the thread starter himself wrote.
Because I2 is not necessarily Slavic, and exists also on the Aegean islands and Crete (places that were never colonized by Slavs). You can see this in y-dna frequencies by region of Greece that are posted on this forum. Additionally R1a has, according to this chart, nearly uniform distribution in Greece.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
Angela
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Had you truly read the study, and the material provided about the provenance of the samples, and understood the statistical analysis you would know that they discovered a cline in Italy with values ranging from those similar to the Swiss to those more similar to the Greeks.
Just what would satisfy you? A finding that northern Italians are really Germans in disguise? That is highly unlikely to happen.
Do you see northern Italians plotting in Bavaria somewhere on PCA plots? It's as ridiculous as Iberians thinking they plot in Ireland. The most important question, of course, is why do they want to...
(Also, I fail to see why a Neapolitan would be so interested in proving the Nordicity? of northern Italians. Goodness knows who any of you people really are...It's like being in a house of mirrors.)
This is off-topic, so I will keep it brief...there is no significant Slavic input in Italy. There is a bit in far northeastern Italy from whatever Slovenes etc. wandered over the border. If we know anything we know the R1a markers that can be used to track the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period. I have yet to see R1a 458 show up anywhere in Italy other than in the most miniscule percentages. As for the "Germanic" input, if we once again go by the generally accepted y haplogroups, i.e. "I1" and U-106, you are over-hyping their influence in Italy for whatever bizarre reasons.
However, as I said, this is an off-topic discussion which belongs on a thread about Italian genetics.
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Similar to some groups of Greeks at least. Mainland Greece, even the Peloponnese, has historically documented and genetically verified Slavic influence. One paper that came out fairly recently found that Sicilians, at least, genetically overlap with the people of Crete. Dodecanese islanders, the most geographically outlying group, are more Anatolian though.
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The I2 typical of Crete is a different subclade than the I2 typical of North Greece. Although precise SNP and STR testing is very rare for Crete, last I looked, it seemed to be mainly I2c, as opposed to the I2a-Din typical of North Greece. From the few samples of I2c in Greece we actually have STRs for, it seems that I2c in Greece is also probably fairly recent. I personally still like Eupedia user haithabu's hypothesis that Cretan I2c represents movement of people within the Republic of Venice.
Angela
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You are missing the point. I personally don't care one way or another whether the E-V13 and J2 in Catalonia are from Greek settlements in the first millennium B.C. or from the Neolithic. It's of purely historical interest. I don't know why you care so vehemently. Is it more palatable if it came during the Neolithic for some unknown reason? What's wrong with having some Ulysses like, smart, wily, Homer quoting, intrepid Greek traders among your ancestors? Besides, it's all the same genes, you know. I highly doubt that the Greeks of that period were all that different from their Neolithic farmer ancestors.
The point is that no definitive conclusions can be reached because neither lineage has gotten the attention that has been given to R1b and R1a. So, there is no way currently to distinguish between a Neolithic E-V13 and a Greek settlement era E-V13. We don't even know if J2 is Neolithic in Europe or not.
As to I2, you have to determine which subclades are being discussed. In other areas of this site, more recent phylogenies are published, but for these purposes I2a in that chart is the "Neolithic" marker. I2b the "other" one. I2a, which is present in Catalonia at a level of 5% according to the link, could all have a Neolithic arrival date in Catalonia, or some of it could have come with the Greeks, who of course would also have carried their own Neolithic markers. I2b is present at a level of .5%. Some areas of Greece today carry I2b at levels of 3-4%. It is on a north/south cline, which could be interpreted to support the theory that I2b is a "Slavic" marker. R1a is also at a .5% level in Catalonia. Levels are much higher in Greece, but again, it is indeed not uniformly distributed. It also exhibits a north/south cline. Of course, much depends on the subclades, but they are not delineated in this chart.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml
So, I fail to see how looking at I2b levels and R1a levels (at very low resolution) in Catalonia today could add support to the argument for the non-Greek origins of E-V13 and J2 in that area when we don't know what the levels of I2b and R1a of any variety would have been in Greeks of the first millennium BC, and the evidence could very easily be interpreted to mean that most of I2b and much of R1a in Greece entered that country 5-700 years later.
Once again, I don't care, and I am not arguing that the E-V13 and the J2 in Catalonia are from Greek settlements. My point was and is that I found your argument unpersuasive.
Oh, if you want to know what a study of a uniparental marker looks like that actually provides a thorough, scientific analysis, you might want to take a look at the very recent paper that does an exhaustive analysis of what is often called the "North African" mtDna U6.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/14/109
It includes this conclusion:
"Actually, the U6 phylogeny and the phylogeography of its lineages are better explained admitting both prehistoric and historic influences in Europe. " Everything depended on the specific subclades involved.