Demographic history and genetic variation of the Armenian population

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Moja

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Approximately after the Early Bronze Age period, a migration from the steppe in a southeastern direction introduced Yamnaya-related ancestry to the region (though predominantly not reaching western and central parts of the Armenian highlands).7 These aforementioned gene flows, backed by linguistic evidence of the formation of the proto-Armenian language during the second part of the Bronze Age (∼4,000 years ago),11 position the Armenian highlands as either near or a potential candidate for the proposed homeland of the Proto-Indo-European languages from where they subsequently radiated into western Europe, central Asia, and India.
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That conclusion is a bit strange. They confirm the influx of Yamnaya-related people and this positions the Armenian highlands as a potential PIE homeland candidate? Which kind of logic is that?
 
Riverman said:
That conclusion is a bit strange. They confirm the influx of Yamnaya-related people and this positions the Armenian highlands as a potential PIE homeland candidate? Which kind of logic is that?
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Because it says "Another well-documented post-Neolithic event was the onset of a population movement from the Caucasus into the steppe, which ultimately genetically contributed to the formation of Yamnaya ancestry.7,8,9 ".
 
Moja said:
Because it says "Another well-documented post-Neolithic event was the onset of a population movement from the Caucasus into the steppe, which ultimately genetically contributed to the formation of Yamnaya ancestry.7,8,9 ".
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Well, that's the ongoing debate, but the way the said it was a bit too specific. Also, the patrilineages are local EHG, which makes the arrival of language from Transcaucasia, in any case, rather unlikely.
 
Riverman said:
Well, that's the ongoing debate, but the way the said it was a bit too specific. Also, the patrilineages are local EHG, which makes the arrival of language from Transcaucasia, in any case, rather unlikely.
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As Kozintsev says in "Proto-Indo-Europeans: The Prologue" (https://pure.spbu.ru/ws/files/53198823/Proto_Indo_Europeans_The_prologue_2019_.pdf): Should one conclude that migrants from the south, who evidently introduced pastoralism to the region, adopted the language of the local foragers en masse?
 
Y-chromosome Haplogroup Y-Marker Study

G2b2b1 FGC5085,Y6224 This study
R1b1a1b1b1 L584 This study
J2b M12 This study
J2a1a1b2a1b PF5427 This study
T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a1 CTS9882 This study
J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b2b1a~ BY102 This study
T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a1 CTS9882 This study
J2a1a1b2a1b1b~ Z423 This study
J2a1a1a2a2a1a1~ Y104740 This study
I2a1b1a2b1 CTS2392 This study
I2a1b1a2b1 CTS2392 This study
R1b1a1b1b1 L584 This study
R2a2b1b2b3b2a1a Y17752 This study
J2a1a1a2b2a1a1b~ Y7147 This study
J1a2a2 FGC6064 This study
G2a2b1a1a1a2b BY91399 This study
R2a2b1 FGC12643 This study
G2a2a1a2a3~ FT155546 This study
J2a1a1a2b2a3b1b1~ CTS5965 This study
T1a2a PH141/Y13244 This study
J1a2a1a2d2b~ Z1853 This study
J1a2a1a2d2b2b1~ ZS2518 This study
J2a1a1a2a2b2a~ Y8531 This study
R1b1a1b1b Z2103 This study
R1b1a1b1b1 L584 Mallik, S. et al, 2016
Q2a1a4b~ BZ5070 This study
J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4d2a2a4~ FGC4415 This study
R1b1a1b1b1 L584 This study
R1b1a1b1b Z2103 This study
R1b1a1b1b Z2103 This study
J2a1a1b2a1a2 FGC9878 Mallik, S. et al, 2016
===========
One J1-FGC6064 from my branch, I hope we can extract more SNPs from the BAM.file

ENA Browser

ENA Browser
www.ebi.ac.uk www.ebi.ac.uk
 
Riverman said:
Well, that's the ongoing debate, but the way the said it was a bit too specific. Also, the patrilineages are local EHG, which makes the arrival of language from Transcaucasia, in any case, rather unlikely.
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I wonder Riverman, do you still believe in the Lower Don-theory? I assume you’re aware of the fully EHG Satanay sample from Ghalichi et al. 2024.
 
The Lower Don region was the formative zone for PIE without a doubt. However, there was a preceding phase, before Sredny Stog, and how that emerged is up to debate.
 
Riverman said:
The Lower Don region was the formative zone for PIE without a doubt. However, there was a preceding phase, before Sredny Stog, and how that emerged is up to debate.
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So you agree that Lower Don as the first region receiving CHG-related is out of place now? I would like to know your opinion on this debate.

Concerning Sredny Stog, it is just not enough Yamnaya-like autosomal wise and the CLV region has two M269 while Sredny Stog has none. There is all you need for Yamnaya right next to Maykop on southern Russian steppe and the North Caucasus. There is no need for Sredny Stog.
 
I think that Sredny Stog is crucial for the cultural formation of the PIE. It was always clear that the Caucasian settlers moved there. My opinion was they moved along the coastline, but probably that was wrong and they moved from the Piedmont steppe, I don't know.
We don't have a good sampling for the developed SSC yet, we'll see how it turns out when more comes in from different phases and regions.
 
I've been saying for years what the authors are getting at. Anatolian bronze age ancestry is effectively a simple two way fusion of Anatolian neolithic and Southern Caucasian neolithic from the Armenian highlands. Also, the only common genetic factor between all the oldest IE speakers is Caucasian ancestry which should be seriously investigated as a candidate for PIE. The PCA is also a nice touch and shows modern Armenians seem to cluster with Neolithic.

Armenians are recognized as one of the ancient populations in Western Asia and have historically inhabited the area of the Armenian highlands1 (Figure 1). Lying between Europe and Asia, the territory of the highlands has been a land bridge for major human migrations since its early settlement in the Upper Paleolithic.2 Due to the proximity to the Fertile Crescent, the region emerged as one of the earliest centers to adopt agriculture in the Neolithic while also playing a pivotal role in disseminating technologies such as obsidian tools,3 leather footwear,4 and viticulture.5 This period has been characterized by extensive genetic interactions between the Caucasus, northern Levant, Iran, and Anatolia over a long time span,6,7 with a notable gene flow from the South-Caucasus-like source to Anatolia, starting after the end of the Neolithic.7 Another well-documented post-Neolithic event was the onset of a population movement from the Caucasus into the steppe, which ultimately genetically contributed to the formation of Yamnaya ancestry.7,8,9 The Bronze Age in the Armenian highlands is marked by the rise and fall of a number of archaeological cultures, including the Early Bronze Kura-Araxes culture, Middle Bronze Age Early Kurgan, Trialeti-Vanadzor, Sevan-Artsakh, Karmir-berd, and Karmir-vank ceramic traditions, and the Late Bronze and Early Iron Age Lchashen-Metsamor culture.10 Approximately after the Early Bronze Age period, a migration from the steppe in a southeastern direction introduced Yamnaya-related ancestry to the region (though predominantly not reaching western and central parts of the Armenian highlands).7 These aforementioned gene flows, backed by linguistic evidence of the formation of the proto-Armenian language during the second part of the Bronze Age (∼4,000 years ago),11 position the Armenian highlands as either near or a potential candidate for the proposed homeland of the Proto-Indo-European languages from where they subsequently radiated into western Europe, central Asia, and India.
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1732768911524.jpeg
 
Moja said:
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These aforementioned gene flows, backed by linguistic evidence of the formation of the proto-Armenian language during the second part of the Bronze Age (∼4,000 years ago)
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And what would be the linguistic evidence for the formation of the Proto-Armenian language during the second part of the Bronze Age (∼4,000 years ago)? Is there any linguistic evidence dated to 4,000 years ago to prove this?

I'm going from memory, but the first inscription in Armenian dates back 1,500 years.

the Armenian highlands as either near or a potential candidate for the proposed homeland of the Proto-Indo-European languages
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It would definitely be more appropriate to use the term ancestor of Proto-Indo-European languages in this case, not PIE.
 
Pax Augusta said:
And what would be the linguistic evidence for the formation of the Proto-Armenian language during the second part of the Bronze Age (∼4,000 years ago)? Is there any linguistic evidence dated to 4,000 years ago to prove this?
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I think it probably relates the earliest mention to Armenian people/land, Armenians call their country Hayastan, as you read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayasa-Azzi Some scholars believe that Armenians were native to the Hayasa region in the Armenian Highlands in the 2nd millennium BC, the name of Armenia has a Persian origin, Persians call Armenians as Armani and there was Armani kingdom in the north of Syria in the 3rd millennium BC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armani_(kingdom)
 
Armenian language is very far from a model for the PIE syntax (too strong agglomering tendancy in it?) and I doubt Armenia should be the centre of a PPIE language. At least we may say this PPIE has underwent drastic syntaxic modifications when transmitted to Steppes (PIE for me). I regret I'm poor knowledged about Anatolian languages to go further on.
But if we accept that a language can undergo so important changes on a direction, we may accept it can do it on the opposite direction? (not always, BI for some phonetic changes, what push me to suppose a Steppes > South Caucasus move and not the contrary). IMO.
 
Ricardo said:
Y-chromosome Haplogroup Y-Marker Study

G2b2b1 FGC5085,Y6224 This study
R1b1a1b1b1 L584 This study
J2b M12 This study
J2a1a1b2a1b PF5427 This study
T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a1 CTS9882 This study
J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b2b1a~ BY102 This study
T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a1 CTS9882 This study
J2a1a1b2a1b1b~ Z423 This study
J2a1a1a2a2a1a1~ Y104740 This study
I2a1b1a2b1 CTS2392 This study
I2a1b1a2b1 CTS2392 This study
R1b1a1b1b1 L584 This study
R2a2b1b2b3b2a1a Y17752 This study
J2a1a1a2b2a1a1b~ Y7147 This study
J1a2a2 FGC6064 This study
G2a2b1a1a1a2b BY91399 This study
R2a2b1 FGC12643 This study
G2a2a1a2a3~ FT155546 This study
J2a1a1a2b2a3b1b1~ CTS5965 This study
T1a2a PH141/Y13244 This study
J1a2a1a2d2b~ Z1853 This study
J1a2a1a2d2b2b1~ ZS2518 This study
J2a1a1a2a2b2a~ Y8531 This study
R1b1a1b1b Z2103 This study
R1b1a1b1b1 L584 Mallik, S. et al, 2016
Q2a1a4b~ BZ5070 This study
J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4d2a2a4~ FGC4415 This study
R1b1a1b1b1 L584 This study
R1b1a1b1b Z2103 This study
R1b1a1b1b Z2103 This study
J2a1a1b2a1a2 FGC9878 Mallik, S. et al, 2016
===========
One J1-FGC6064 from my branch, I hope we can extract more SNPs from the BAM.file

ENA Browser

ENA Browser
www.ebi.ac.uk www.ebi.ac.uk
Click to expand...


thanks
for sharing ;)(y)
disappointing that there is not even 1 e1b1b1 here ( no e-m123 and no e-m78)
 
MOESAN said:
Armenian language is very far from a model for the PIE syntax (too strong agglomering tendancy in it?) and I doubt Armenia should be the centre of a PPIE language. At least we may say this PPIE has underwent drastic syntaxic modifications when transmitted to Steppes (PIE for me). I regret I'm poor knowledged about Anatolian languages to go further on.
But if we accept that a language can undergo so important changes on a direction, we may accept it can do it on the opposite direction? (not always, BI for some phonetic changes, what push me to suppose a Steppes > South Caucasus move and not the contrary). IMO.
Click to expand...
Phonologically, the closest language to PIE is Kurdish, not Armenian, however Kurdish is an Iranian language but Kurdish phonology is neither similar to Iranian, nor Indo-Iranian but PIE phonology, for example we know labialized voiced velar plosive (gʷ) exists in PIE and Kurdish but it didn't exist in Indo-Iranian, Iranian, Armenian, Anatolian, ... There are also a large number of reconstructed PIE words in Kurdish, in fact it can be said that Kurdish has a PIE substrate.
 
Is interesting to confirm the presence of J2 Z387 (J2a1a1b2a1b PF5427) and J2 Z423 (J2a1a1b2a1b1b~ Z423 ) in Western Anatolia (Kessab and Urfa), both clades related to J2 L70.
 
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