Celts

[David Clark]

Conventional Wisdom says the Celts originated somewhere above the Black Sea disseminated throughout northern and southern Europe, created a culture of poetic and mystery and came to the UK about 600 BC. I believe the Celts were already there! I believe the Celts were really R1b. What do others say?

 

[Ygorbr]

AFAIK conventional wisdom doesn't tell that narrative about the Celts. The Celts are most often supposed to have arisen as a distinct ethnicity in Central or Western Europe, more probably with the Urnfield culture. The "core" Celtic peoples, those most often associated with typical Celtic culture, are often supposed to represent specifically the Hallstatt culture around the 9th century B.C., from which centuries later the expansionist culture of Gauls would sweep through Celtic and non-Celtic territories spreading the La Tène cultural styles (and probably Gaulish dialects themselves, which in my opinion is why the Celtic languages were suspiciously too similar for an IE branch supposed to be old).

If I were to make an "informed guess", I'd bet on this speculation: Indo-Europeanized Bell Beaker spread an ancient Northwestern Indo-European language north, south and west from its supposed starting point of expansion around Netherlands/Belgium. Spreading their mixed culture and language to the south through the Rhine, the Proto-Celtic culture would've arisen as a southern extension of that Northwestern IE next to the sources of the Rhine, in present-day Switzerland/Southern Germany/Alsace-Lorraine. That's also broadly where Hallstatt culture appeared.

I believe Britain was inhabited since the late 3nd millenium B.C. by Para-Celtic peoples, i.e. peoples whose language was related to, but not derived from Proto-Celtic proper (perhaps another unknown branch of Proto-Italo-Celtic). Then those peoples adopted Celtic languages when the "core" Hallstatt Celts spread their languages throughout Europe. It would've been a relatively uncomplicated feat for them, much like switching from Swedish to English.

 

[Ed the Red]

I am a Celtic enthusiast, not just from some genes but also from historical amazement.
Here's what I've learned, first off the Celts were a conquering warrior people. They were a branch of the great Indo European migration through Europe via the Russian steppes. ( Scythians, Cimmerian's, sarmatians) are the major example of these people. If you want the best authentic history of this then Google " the text of the Declaration of Arbroath" this scripture attests to the origin of Scottish Gaels. Funny enough if you read the Irish "Book of Invasions" the story of the Gaels is almost exactly the same. As we all know the Scots (Gaels) came through northern Ireland and setup the kingdom of Dal Riata in Scotland. The Gaels were a different and later branch of celts than the Britons who were already there and were most likely Celts from Gaulish tribes.
The other people that are shrouded in mystery is the Picts, who also were already there when the Scots came over. There are many theories of their origin but since the Britons were Celts who arrived at an earlier time than the Gaels, the Picts were probably a branch of the Britons that kept moving north. Also the Welsh call themselves Cymry, which could be a connotation to Cimmerian. And on that note there was also a Celtic tribe called the Cimbri which doesn't just seem like a coincidence.
The biggest evidence of where Celts have been is place names beginning with Gal. We know them from Galatia (modern turkey) Galicia (Poland) transalpine and cisapline Gaul (northern Italy) Galicia (Spain).
So all over Europe was the first encroachment on previous settlements of a more Nordic subclade. Soon to follow by germanic invasions. Let's keep this conversation going!

 

[Ed the Red]

Google the "Declaration of Arbroath" and "Book of Invasions". They speak about Scottish/Irish Gaelic origin. It will give a glimpse into Greater Scythia (Russian steppes) of origin. Greater Scythia was a vast area of Nomadic Indo European horsemen i.e. Scythian,Cimmerian, Sarmatian.
Sure there was earlier people inhabiting Europe and the Isles but they were not Nomadic warrior horsemen. The Celts were savage iron age masters of metallurgy and would have assimilated any earlier tribes that were there. They displaced Etruscans, sacked Rome, and burnt down Delphi in Greece. They were contracted out as mercenaries in every major army and helped Hannibal in his campaign to try to destroy Rome yet again.
Let's keep this conversation going

 

[1337]

Here is something interesting I found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbon , the name Arbon appears in Switzerland which used to be inhabited by Celts and Raetians , the name also appears among Illyrians as does the name 'Albanoi' , in fact, 'Arbon' or 'Arbonites' was an old name for Albanian.

Some hold Raetians were pre-Indo-European people of Europe related to Etruscan. But Central Europe became inhabited by Celts and Proto-Illyrians.

 

[1337]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia Arbor/Arbon was a Raetian town

 

[1337]

I am a Celtic enthusiast, not just from some genes but also from historical amazement.
Here's what I've learned, first off the Celts were a conquering warrior people. They were a branch of the great Indo European migration through Europe via the Russian steppes. ( Scythians, Cimmerian's, sarmatians) are the major example of these people. If you want the best authentic history of this then Google " the text of the Declaration of Arbroath" this scripture attests to the origin of Scottish Gaels. Funny enough if you read the Irish "Book of Invasions" the story of the Gaels is almost exactly the same. As we all know the Scots (Gaels) came through northern Ireland and setup the kingdom of Dal Riata in Scotland. The Gaels were a different and later branch of celts than the Britons who were already there and were most likely Celts from Gaulish tribes.
The other people that are shrouded in mystery is the Picts, who also were already there when the Scots came over. There are many theories of their origin but since the Britons were Celts who arrived at an earlier time than the Gaels, the Picts were probably a branch of the Britons that kept moving north. Also the Welsh call themselves Cymry, which could be a connotation to Cimmerian. And on that note there was also a Celtic tribe called the Cimbri which doesn't just seem like a coincidence.
The biggest evidence of where Celts have been is place names beginning with Gal. We know them from Galatia (modern turkey) Galicia (Poland) transalpine and cisapline Gaul (northern Italy) Galicia (Spain).
So all over Europe was the first encroachment on previous settlements of a more Nordic subclade. Soon to follow by germanic invasions. Let's keep this conversation going!

Proto-Celts lived next to Proto-Illyrians and both came from the Hallstatt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture

Only thing is that proto-Illyrian moved into the Balkans while Celtic speakers still lived there until the Roman period when they were conquered by Rome and Romanized and then Germanic tribes came , also pre-Indo European people like Etruscans were Romanized. Seems like Celts and Illyrians that had lived in these areas of central Europe had extensively mixed with pre-IE populations and were genetically quite southern already. Germanic ancestry shifted these populations more north that live there today such as British Isles, France, Holland, Germany etc.

Of course I'm not an expert it's just theories

 

[1337]