Religion Can Muslims live peacefully with Christians, and vice versa?

[LeBrok]

Loose discussions on Muslim versus Christians points of view, conflicts, and redirected off topic posts from other threads.

 

[bicicleur 2]

On the future that whole Europe will be islamised. This would happen many years onward form now. Till that day the majority of Muslims would be less conservative than they are today. The Islam world of the future will a tolerant and liberal one. This happened with Christianity. Seems history repeat itself.

how can you tell?
what indications do you have? or is it just wishfull thinking?
look what is happening in Turkey. I think Ataturk is turning in his grave.

 

[LeBrok]

how can you tell?
what indications do you have? or is it just wishfull thinking?
look what is happening in Turkey. I think Ataturk is turning in his grave.

Progress is not linear phenomenon, it looks more like stock market chart. Imagine religious conservatism is at the bottom and libertarian society is a the top.

 

[Boreas]

Let me tell you Guys, what will happen in Europe.

Fanatic, Neo-Nazism behaviours against Muslims and Islam will start a new war wave.

(Many major European city have important level of muslim citizen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European_Union_by_Muslim_population)

and Christian Europe will lose their the biggest weapon in that war, which is Secular Muslims. After that, the voice of real enlightened people of Europe will decrease and this will continune like a hate vortex.

 

[Piro Ilir]

how can you tell?
what indications do you have? or is it just wishfull thinking?
look what is happening in Turkey. I think Ataturk is turning in his grave.

First- my post was about the future. That would happen many years from now. It's assumed by the intelligence agencies.

Erdogan took 49.2% of the voters. 1-Turkey is in war .
2- erdogan had manipulated the elections, although partly.
Even so he took less than 50%. He won because of the wrong elections system they have.

Turkey is having democratic problems. It's going to a dictatorial state. Has nothing to do with Islam. I don't think erdogan is a Muslim.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Let me tell you Guys, what will happen in Europe.

Fanatic, Neo-Nazism behaviours against Muslims and Islam will start a new war wave.

(Many major European city have important level of muslim citizen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European_Union_by_Muslim_population)

and Christian Europe will lose their the biggest weapon in that war, which is Secular Muslims. After that, the voice of real enlightened people of Europe will decrease and this will continune like a hate vortex.

Europe should be careful to this huge migration of Muslims. They are coming from areas of conservative Islam. This could infect Europe and change the demographic balances between the conservative Muslims and liberal Muslims. I hope they don't bring refugees from Syria in my country. There is a huge difference between the Muslims of Syria and the Muslims or Balkans. We don't want here that kind of Islam.

I saw the Turkish elections in tv. I saw many women there covered with hijab. Even then wife of president it's covered. What the hell is happening there? They are destroying Turkey and that's too sad

 

[bicicleur 2]

First- my post was about the future. That would happen many years from now. It's assumed by the intelligence agencies.

Erdogan took 49.2% of the voters. 1-Turkey is in war .
2- erdogan had manipulated the elections, although partly.
Even so he took less than 50%. He won because of the wrong elections system they have.

Turkey is having democratic problems. It's going to a dictatorial state. Has nothing to do with Islam. I don't think erdogan is a Muslim.

I don't know whether Erdogan is a Muslim. But he made many comments in which he implies that Muslims are superior people who have nothing to learn from western values.
Erdogan is very popular with Muslims who buy that kind of rhetoric. It is his main electorate.
That is why it is so frightening what is happening in Turkey.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Progress is not linear phenomenon, it looks more like stock market chart. Imagine religious conservatism is at the bottom and libertarian society is a the top.

well, that doesn't look good for Europe
as long as new non-secular Muslims keep coming in from the Middle East and countries like Afghanistan it will be a big problem
I wish they became secular in the Middle East and Afghanistan first before coming over, but that won't happen soon, on the contrary

 

[bicicleur 2]

Let me tell you Guys, what will happen in Europe.

Fanatic, Neo-Nazism behaviours against Muslims and Islam will start a new war wave.

(Many major European city have important level of muslim citizen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European_Union_by_Muslim_population)

and Christian Europe will lose their the biggest weapon in that war, which is Secular Muslims. After that, the voice of real enlightened people of Europe will decrease and this will continune like a hate vortex.

Europe is not afraid of the secular Muslims
the fundamentalist Muslims are enemies of both Christians and secular Muslims

and Europe is not defending Christianity, it is defending secularism, something that seems to be disapearing in Turkey

and I admit, for Europeans it is sometimes dificult to see the diference between secular and non-secular Muslims
then again, you think all Europeans that don't agree with you are nazi

 

[Taranis]

well, that doesn't look good for Europe
as long as new non-secular Muslims keep coming in from the Middle East and countries like Afghanistan it will be a big problem
I wish they became secular in the Middle East and Afghanistan first before coming over, but that won't happen soon, on the contrary

People are fleeing en-masse from an entity that is literally the wet-dream of radical Muslims (the so-called "ISIS" or "Da'eesh"), do you really think its plausible that people who flee from this would become supporter of the same ideology? In my opinion, the mere existence of Da'eesh is something that in the long-run will force islamic fundamentalists to question their own believes and in the end, become more moderate. You have to think about this: radical Islam as it has unfolded itself over the past decades offers no perspective for a future. It has no aspirations for building a stable society, for economic growth and prosperity. What it actually means is living a day dream about perpetual war, genocide and sexual domination. And you don't need a degree from Havard to figure out that that's a really bad idea. I'm pretty sure that for example, not even the Muslim Brotherhood would want what Da'eesh has done to Syria to also happen in Egypt.

So, stop being paranoid about Muslim immigration, and frankly, stop being racists.

 

[Boreas]

Europe is not afraid of the secular Muslims

There is an idiom in my language, "wet wood can burn with dry wood". At least the meaning similar like that :grin:. Maybe you just want to burn dry ones, but rage in Europe will hit also secular muslims

the fundamentalist Muslims are enemies of both Christians and secular Muslims

All fanatic ideas which base on religion, political view, race or gender are enemy of humanity.

and Europe is not defending Christianity, it is defending secularism

with increasing and feeding local racists.

something that seems to be disapearing in Turkey

Unfortunately true, Europaen people who declare don't eat kebab and act like these won't solve anything.

then again, you think all Europeans that don't agree with you are nazi

Yes, if you think all muslim are fundamentalist. :grin:

If 1% of Muslim are fundamentalist, people remind that like every Muslim same as if 1% of European are nazi, people remind that too. This is basing nature, but we should be better then this.

 

[Yetos]

@ piro

you would like Europe to become islamic state,
since you are one,

@ Boreas
Radical Islam is 1/3 of the islamic world,
fetvas are above any law, either state, either international,

@ Lebrok

yes, cause soon we WILL HAVE ANOTHER HYPATEIA, SCYTHOPOLIS, etc etc,
Islam will turn Europe to 4-8 were every Greek/pagan should die to praise the one and only God or
where palimpsista, were raised to write prays to 'Lord'
or to 14-17 century AD were all scientists were magicians, who should burn to holy fire,

accept it,
Christians are good people?
yes or no, they killed Hypateia, they created Scythopolis, they destroy 85% of all ancient world, even the Olympics,

Islamists are good people?
yes or no they destroy Budas in India, and Palmyra temple, and Assyrian heritage,
WAIT TO SEE WHEN THEY CONGUER EUROPE!!!!!!!


@ to all
Wait to see Daesh or Boco Haram etc to take slaves your daughters,
wait to see you daughters stop school at 12-15 years old,
wait to be shot as 'charlie' just because you said a word about something wrong,

 

[Rethel]

Europe is not afraid of the secular Muslims
the fundamentalist Muslims are enemies of both Christians and secular Muslims

But such a thing like secular muslim does not exist.

and Europe is not defending Christianity, it is defending secularism, something that seems to be disapearing in Turkey

And this is very sad, so Europe will be muslim - especially Belgium?

and I admit, for Europeans it is sometimes dificult to see the diference between secular and non-secular Muslims

Because secular muslims does not exists.

then again, you think all Europeans that don't agree with you are nazi

This is very common on this forum, when someone does not fit with
sacred words, is acusing of being nazi, rasist or agent of Stormfront.

If 1% of Muslim are fundamentalist, people remind that like every Muslim same as if 1% of European are nazi, people remind that too. This is basing nature, but we should be better then this.

This is simply not true. Maybe secular muslims are 1%. Among this
ones which are living on the West it is maximum 20%. The 20% of
all muslims (300.000.000 people!) are extrimly fundamentalist, and
this means that they can today go and blow themselves. The rest
60-80% are supporting this 20% of extrimers.

Secular muslim = non muslim at all. At least... he can be deceptive,
and be claiming his secularity to missinform of sabotage unbelivers.
There is no other option in Islam. This, what you are now claiming
Boreas is taqqiya. Nothing less and nothing more.

 

[Rethel]

wait to be shot as 'charlie' just because you said a word about something wrong,

You do not need muslims for that.
Political corectness is even more effective than they are.
So it will be a little change, but not so big as it is allready.
You do not belive? Write something here about some tabu...

 

[bicicleur 2]

People are fleeing en-masse from an entity that is literally the wet-dream of radical Muslims (the so-called "ISIS" or "Da'eesh"), do you really think its plausible that people who flee from this would become supporter of the same ideology? In my opinion, the mere existence of Da'eesh is something that in the long-run will force islamic fundamentalists to question their own believes and in the end, become more moderate. You have to think about this: radical Islam as it has unfolded itself over the past decades offers no perspective for a future. It has no aspirations for building a stable society, for economic growth and prosperity. What it actually means is living a day dream about perpetual war, genocide and sexual domination. And you don't need a degree from Havard to figure out that that's a really bad idea. I'm pretty sure that for example, not even the Muslim Brotherhood would want what Da'eesh has done to Syria to also happen in Egypt.

So, stop being paranoid about Muslim immigration, and frankly, stop being racists.

you don't know the history of Islam
Islam fundamentalism is nothing new, it is almost as old as Islam itself
how long does hatred between shia and sunni exist? almost as long as Islam itself
there have always been fundamentalist fractions inside Islam, for over 1200 years now
if your reasoning above would be correct, Islam wouldn't exist anymore today
the truth is Islam is unable to coop with their own funadmentalists
Muslims are embarrased about this, they prefer to forget and not to talk about this
they don't want us to talk about it either

and you are going to tell me Christians were the same
well, Europe is a secular state now and 99 % of Christians accept it
not so for Muslims, especialy for those coming into Europe now

and sorry for telling you this, I must be a terrible racist because I don't agree with you

and yes, most of the immigrants don't form a threat, it is a minority
furthermore most of the immigrants are no fugitives either, they are adventurers who are told they'll get an easy life in Europe
well, Europe is unable to host all those adventurers from all over the world whatever Merkel may have said
I wonder what is going to happen at the European borders now it appears this flow isn't going to stop

 

[Rethel]

Europe is a secular state now

Bicicleur,
Europe is not secular. This is only an euphemism for some unnamed "secular" religion.
Europe is prosocialistic, proatheistic, prohomosexual, proevolutionistic, antychristian,
and is leading by maoistic belivers of zero-growth, partialy associated with extremly
communist paramasonic group named Grand Orient de France...

Of course, some people belive in that empty phrase... secular... but it is curve ball...

 

[Taranis]

you don't know the history of Islam
Islam fundamentalism is nothing new, it is almost as old as Islam itself
how long does hatred between shia and sunni exist? almost as long as Islam itself
there have always been fundamentalist fractions inside Islam, for over 1200 years now
if your reasoning above would be correct, Islam wouldn't exist anymore today
the truth is Islam is unable to coop with their own funadmentalists
Muslims are embarrased about this, they prefer to forget and not to talk about this
they don't want us to talk about it either

Actually, my reason is exactly correct, and there's two good examples from history there that prove my point, namely where major Islamic polities ceased to exist because they engaged in orgies of intolerance and extremism. The first is Al-Andalus (Muslim Iberia) under the Almohads, who were much more intolerant of religious minorities (especially Jews) than their forebearers, and who vastly hastened the demise of Muslim Iberia during their rule. Its probable that Al-Andalus would have lasted longer - perhaps even to the present day consider that the last sultan of Granada was unseated in the same year as Columbus discovered the New World) - without this episode. The second example is the Mughal Empire under Aurangzeb, who ruined the Mughal Empire through his widespread progromes and military campaigns against Hindus - the end effect was that he left the entire subcontinent in a destitute condition to be taken over by the English.

As for the Sunni-Shia divide, I will agree with you in so far as that in the talk of right-wing nutjobs in the West, this is a concept that doesn't show up. Instead, the Islamic world is prefered to be viewed as a monolithic, homogenous blob on the map, so that you can justify to perceive it as a "threat" to Western civilization.

 

[DuPidh]

in Europe some are afraid ISIS will now start attacking civilians worldwide
it is an argument to keep restraint and not to confront ISIS head on
Europeans are chickens, I wonder whether they are able to do what it takes
we prefer to wait for the US and the Russians to act and after that we critisize them
we tend to give credit to organisations like the Syrian Observatory of Human Rights who spread news info that can't be checked

Europeans are tired of wars. Only in ww2 were killed an estimated

 

[Boreas]

Secular muslim = non muslim at all. At least... he can be deceptive,
and be claiming his secularity to missinform of sabotage unbelivers.
There is no other option in Islam.

It seems you became a high level işn Islamic doctrine and can decide who is muslim and who is not,

Thanks to share your own ideas, but let's turn back reality.

 

[Rethel]

It seems you became a high level işn Islamic doctrine and can decide who is muslim and who is not,

Thanks to share your own ideas, but let's turn back reality.

I do not decide, neither you, but Mohammed and at least islamic scholars...
You can of course claim that you are a muslim and secular. I saw even a
homosexual activist who was claiming that he is a muslim... But it is not
a matter of personal choice... but of following the rules.

If I create today society of Q-men, and I make a rule, that Q-men can be only
lefthanded and wearing red shirts, and everyone, who is righthanded and wearing
shirts in different colour is not a Qman - then who will decide, who can be a Qman???
Someone who want to wear blue shirt? No. I will decide, because I am the one making
the rules deciding who can be a Q-man and who can be not.

So this is not a matter of personal describing who can be a muslim, but matter of rules.

Btw, if there will be such a thing like secular normal muslim, then on the West were
be no need for muslims gettos, for banning the burka, there will be not problem with
burning cars and blowing buses, and people woudnt be wearing themselves as Arabs.