Austria's Y-haplo-groups.

Templar

Templar

Regular Member
Messages
590
Reaction score
49
Points
0
Ethnic group
Paleolithic European
Y-DNA haplogroup
G-L42
mtDNA haplogroup
H2a1
I know that Austria is mostly R1b, but could someone please list specific clades of it, and whether or not they are of Celtic or Germanic origin. I am wondering if Austria is more Germanic or Celtic. The area was inhabited by Celts for thousands of years, and it was the location of the Hallstatt Celts (arguably one of the most highly-populated Celtic areas). But then after the Germanic invasions, modern-day Austrians obviously speak German.

I've also heard about how some parts of Austria have started wearing Kilts to signify pride in their supposed Celtic ancestors. They are even claiming that the Scottish Kilt's origins are from Austria.
 
Austria is one of the most under-tested countries in Europe for haplogroups. But based on the little data available, it seems that most of the R1b belongs to the Germanic S21 (U106) variety. By the way, R1b is not dominant at all in Austria. It is barely 25% of the male lineages.
 
Austria is notoriously undersampled, so I don't feel like I have enough data offhand to separate Celtic vs. Germanic vs. other (Roman, Slavic, Hungarian, etc.) admixture. But I'd also be interested if anybody has more data than I do. Maybe someone can pull some figures out of something like YHRD?

Templar said:
I've also heard about how some parts of Austria have started wearing Kilts to signify pride in their supposed Celtic ancestors. They are even claiming that the Scottish Kilt's origins are from Austria.
Click to expand...

The modern kilt is obviously a Scottish invention, dating to the 16th century at earliest. It was probably a sort of cross between a pleated Norse garment called a kjalta, and the older Celtic tradition of wearing a cloak and tunic, which often included designs.

I think Celtic reconstructionism is great, but the recent adoption of kilts as a "pan-Celtic" thing by the Irish, Welsh, Cornish, Bretons, Galicians, etc. is distinctly ahistoric.
 
I don't have much to add to what Maciamo and Sparkey said regarding the situation in Austria: we need more samples.

sparkey said:
The modern kilt is obviously a Scottish invention, dating to the 16th century at earliest. It was probably a sort of cross between a pleated Norse garment called a kjalta, and the older Celtic tradition of wearing a cloak and tunic, which often included designs.
Click to expand...

Amusingly though, what the ancient Celts did have tartan. The 1st century BC historian Diodorus of Sicily mentions that one of the most striking features about the Gauls were colorfully-patterned clothes. However, again, the convention of clan-specific tartan colors is a modern (ca. 17th/18th century) invention. Also, the ancient Celts wore pants (breeches) rather than kilts.
 
i wrote this down a while ago from a tyrolese site. they in majority are G2a3b1a2 or was it Ray Banks G project ?

Maybe its easier to search austrian regions for dna numbers than the nation
 
Templar said:
I know that Austria is mostly R1b, but could someone please list specific clades of it, and whether or not they are of Celtic or Germanic origin. I am wondering if Austria is more Germanic or Celtic. The area was inhabited by Celts for thousands of years, and it was the location of the Hallstatt Celts (arguably one of the most highly-populated Celtic areas). But then after the Germanic invasions, modern-day Austrians obviously speak German.

I've also heard about how some parts of Austria have started wearing Kilts to signify pride in their supposed Celtic ancestors. They are even claiming that the Scottish Kilt's origins are from Austria.
Click to expand...

I don't know whom believe but H.HUBERT seamed considering the Eastern Hallstatt (Austria) group as a distinct one from the Western celtic one (S?. Germany Switzerland ...):one material temporal culture, but possibly two different ethnies... Who knows what modern spécialists say?
 
Taranis said:
I don't have much to add to what Maciamo and Sparkey said regarding the situation in Austria: we need more samples.



Amusingly though, what the ancient Celts did have tartan. The 1st century BC historian Diodorus of Sicily mentions that one of the most striking features about the Gauls were colorfully-patterned clothes. However, again, the convention of clan-specific tartan colors is a modern (ca. 17th/18th century) invention. Also, the ancient Celts wore pants (breeches) rather than kilts.
Click to expand...

someones speake about an irish 'leine' that seams to be a sort of tunique ???
 
sparkey said:
The modern kilt is obviously a Scottish invention, dating to the 16th century at earliest. It was probably a sort of cross between a pleated Norse garment called a kjalta, and the older Celtic tradition of wearing a cloak and tunic, which often included designs.
Click to expand...

I think you are vastly overstepping known facts to proclaim unsubstantiated opinions.

The Europid red-haired Tocharian burials in the western chinese desert are in multiple cases wearing the exact same tartan plaids woven in the same manner in the Talka Makan desert of China as is common later on in Scotland..
so I really dont see any basis for your claims at all. While particular clan-tartans or symbology may be later creations, the material and construction is quite old.
 
pipinnacanus said:
I think you are vastly overstepping known facts to proclaim unsubstantiated opinions.

The Europid red-haired Tocharian burials in the western chinese desert are in multiple cases wearing the exact same tartan plaids woven in the same manner in the Talka Makan desert of China as is common later on in Scotland..
so I really dont see any basis for your claims at all. While particular clan-tartans or symbology may be later creations, the material and construction is quite old.
Click to expand...

Not the kilt, no. You're equating kilts with tartans, which, as Taranis has pointed out, aren't to be equated.
 
By the way, R1b is not dominant at all in Austria. It is barely 25% of the male lineages.
Click to expand...

That's surprising...
 
I was looking at the European Y-DNA halpgroups chart, and according to its data it says that Austria has more R1a than R1b. Is most of this R1a Slavic or a remnant of older migrations (such as most R1a in Scandinavia).
 
By the way, R1b is not dominant at all in Austria. It is barely 25% of the male lineages.
Click to expand...
Templar said:
That's surprising...
Click to expand...

Yes, that's somewhat surprising. Still, in neighoring Bavaria we suddenly find approx. 50% R1b and 10% R1a. Historically, there is evidence that Bavarians are indeed mainly descendants of the celtic boii, while Austria did not exist as a nation until the middle ages. It was inhabited by various folks at that time (slavs, awars, raeti ...). Austria started only partially to exist as its western part became a colony of Bavaria first and later a colony of the Frankish empire. So the celtic history of Austria finished already long before Bavarian (re-)colonization. In addition it may be that during Frankish times not only Bavarian colonists settled in Austria, but also Germans. Maybe the increased I1 in eastern Austria is a trace of northern german colonists, given that the eastern part got colonized later mainly during frankish rule.
 
Yes, that's somewhat surprising
Click to expand...

I find it surprising, because the Celtic Hallstatt culture was centered in Austria; specifically in the center of Austria. Maybe the Roman conquest of the region led to severe depopulation (such as it did in Gaul), which allowed for easier replacement of population/haplogroups by future Germanic migrants.
 
It is thought that Caesar killed and enslaved over half of Gaul's Celtic population during his military campaign there.
 
Templar said:
It is thought that Caesar killed and enslaved over half of Gaul's Celtic population during his military campaign there.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is correct. However, does this automatically mean that half of the modern population of France is descended from immigrants during the Roman period? I personally find that rather doubftul, even though I must say it's hard to estimate how large the scope of migration inside the Roman Empire was.

Also, Austria isn't in Gaul. My opinion is that much of the modern makeup of Austria probably stems from the Migration Period to a significant degree, with both Germanic/German and Slavic components to it.

Regarding the connection between Bavaria and the Boii, I think that is rather indirect. The Celtic Boii were conquered in the 1st century BC by the Germanic Marcomanni, but the region continued to be refered as "Boii Home"* even afterwards. In my opinion, the most likely origin of the Bavarians ("Bajuvari" - "Men of Bohemia") is whatever remained of the Marcomanni at the eve of the Migration Period.


*found in:
Strabo's Geography, book 7, chapter 1.3
Tacitus "Germania", chapter 28
 
Also, Austria isn't in Gaul. My opinion is that much of the modern makeup of Austria probably stems from the Migration Period to a significant degree, with both Germanic/German and Slavic components to it.
Click to expand...

I agree, but what happened to the Celts?
 
Templar said:
It is thought that Caesar killed and enslaved over half of Gaul's Celtic population during his military campaign there.
Click to expand...


There are no reliable figures for this.

Saying one million were enslaved and a million killed in Gaul is just ancient rhetoric for "big numbers".:rolleyes2:
 
Templar said:
It is thought that Caesar killed and enslaved over half of Gaul's Celtic population during his military campaign there.
Click to expand...

The ancient Romans weren't Nazi bean-counters you know.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top