An Brazilian L-M349

[Aemilius]

I tested at a local Brazilian company and discovered that i´am L-M349/L1b1. Did not expect that haplogroup, for sure.
My family, as far i know, have deep roots in Brazil with no immigrant ancestor that we are aware of. So i expected a more typical "Portuguese" patrilineal lineage, as it seems to be a rule among colonial Brazilians such as myself. Unfortunately i have very little information about my paternal line, it being for sure the branch that i have the most scarce informations in my family tree. In thesis my great-grandfather was a common man from the countryside of Northeastern Brazil, but i know nothing of him besides his name, even though i searched in almost every source i could. He doesn´t appear in the birth register of my aunt either, being my only paternal great-grandparent to not so.
My DNA results are pretty typical for a mixed colonial Brazilian with my background. Being of Iberian and very significant African heritage(results varying from 2/3European and 1/3African to 3/4European and 1/4African ancestry in the companies i put my DNA in). The only "out of curve" ethnicity that some of these companies detected was Central European in FTDNA and a strange Swiss genetic group in MyHeritage(Bernese, as it seems).
Any suggestions are welcome, thank you for your time.

 

[Duarte]

Hello Aemilius.
It is not uncommon the algorithms of commercial auDNA companies to display some result of Central European ethnicities for people of Iberian descent. There is an ancient mix of Iberians and Celts that dates back to the Iron Age and resulted in Celtiberian culture. Your matrilineal lineage is SSA (Sub-Saharan Africa) and your patrilineal lineage may have come from the Middle East (North Africa and/or Arabia/Levante). In the latter case (patrilineal lineage) it may have reached Iberia with the Moorish invasion of the Iberian Peninsula from the 8th century AD.

 

[Duarte]

Hello Aemilius.
It is not uncommon the algorithms of commercial auDNA companies to display some result of Central European ethnicities for people of Iberian descent. There is an ancient mix of Iberians and Celts that dates back to the Iron Age and resulted in Celtiberian culture. Your matrilineal lineage is SSA (Sub-Saharan Africa) and your patrilineal lineage may have come from the Middle East (North Africa and/or Arabia/Levante). In the latter case (patrilineal lineage) it may have reached Iberia with the Moorish invasion of the Iberian Peninsula from the 8th century AD.

It would be interesting if you could do a yDNA scan that recognized your y subclade further down the phylogenetic tree. As you are from the northeast of Brazil, there is a possibility that you may have inherited the L-M349* from a Dutch colonizer from ‘Nova Holanda’, since in the ytree Yfull this clade is found in Germany and in Slovenia.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L/

 

[Duarte]

Deleted due to duplicity

 

[Aemilius]

It would be interesting if you could do a yDNA scan that recognized your y subclade further down the phylogenetic tree. As you are from the northeast of Brazil, there is a possibility that you may have inherited the L-M349* from a Dutch colonizer from ‘Nova Holanda’, since in the ytree Yfull this clade is found in Germany and in Slovenia.

Hello Duarte.
I do indeed plan to test my haplogroup in a more profund test, although i fear it will take some time until the conditions are favorable.
Dutch influence in the Northeast is a controversial topic, to say.
It is known that the WIC used Central and Northern European mercenaries in the wars of conquest of Northeastern Brazil, some people even claiming that a number of these soldiers settled as landowners and minor officers/artisans in Niew Holland(Nova Holanda). But the numbers are highly debated and the war of Restoration was specially brutal to these men, with Brazilian and Portuguese soldiers killing most of them. There is a theory that the survivors settled in the countryside, where they were eventually assimilated in the local culture, but most of the sources that these people use are of pretty dubious veracity.
But the possibility is there, nothing is impossible when we are talking about Brazil.
(One minor correction: i´m actually from Southeastern Brazil, my paternal family are recent migrants to São Paulo. My mother´s family are entirely from SP and MG though)

 

[couscous]

I tested at a local Brazilian company and discovered that i´am L-M349/L1b1

I am myself L-M349 from spanish jewish ancestry leaving in and citizen from France, I think that you don't need to look further where did you get that Y haplogroup.
It's well known that many jewish didn't leave iberic peninsula after reconquista and Isabella's reign

Parabens primo, eu falou brasileiro porque tenho familia la.

 

[couscous]

Hello again,

My previous post offered an hypotesis, it's not the only one, our Haplo Y is very comun in Tamil Nadu (south India) and has its origin in Pakistan in 6000 BCE.
A branch went to the west it's why it's not uncomun in Druze population of Israel, after that you can find it at a very low % in different countries in Europe.

Your Y lineage is not necessary the one I suggested (iberian jewish) there is many other possibilities but you shouldn't exclude it.

Also my Y lineage might not be originated from iberian jewish population because my ancestors went to the Ottoman Empire, this Y is still present in various region around what was the Ottoman Empire and I have other part of my (non-Y) DNA wich is also from this region, my paternal lineage could come from ancestors who weren't originated from Spain...

It's complicated...

 

[Aemilius]

Hello again,

My previous post offered an hypotesis, it's not the only one, our Haplo Y is very comun in Tamil Nadu (south India) and has its origin in Pakistan in 6000 BCE.
A branch went to the west it's why it's not uncomun in Druze population of Israel, after that you can find it at a very low % in different countries in Europe.

Your Y lineage is not necessary the one I suggested (iberian jewish) there is many other possibilities but you shouldn't exclude it.

Also my Y lineage might not be originated from iberian jewish population because my ancestors went to the Ottoman Empire, this Y is still present in various region around what was the Ottoman Empire and I have other part of my (non-Y) DNA wich is also from this region, my paternal lineage could come from ancestors who weren't originated from Spain...

It's complicated...

Hello friend, it's a pleasure meeting another L-M349!
Recently, I ordered a Whole Genome test from Nebula Genomics. So, some news in the next months are expected. In my family documented line, it goes back to the Island of São Miguel, on the Azorean archipelago.
However, there is some problems on that too. My cousins on the male line are actually R1b-DF13, indicating that either my Y-DNA came somehow wrong (seems unlikely though) or that an NPE occurred at some point in the line. I've confirmed my bio line at least up to my great-great-grandfather by using the DNA matches tools, and probably to his father too.
I'm curious to see how it will turn out.

 

[torzio]

do you guys know your snp ?


there are a few L Ydna in Switzerland, Italy and other alpine countries

L-FTC17062

L-FTA18473

L-FT112156

L-FT111014


surnames, like, Corse, Toigo, Bet and others

 

[Aemilius]

do you guys know your snp ?
there are a few L Ydna in Switzerland, Italy and other alpine countries
L-FTC17062
L-FTA18473
L-FT112156
L-FT111014
surnames, like, Corse, Toigo, Bet and others

My test done here in Brazil isn't deep enough to go beyond M349. On the Morley predictor I got L-PAGES00113 as a result, but it seems to be really outdated and isn't exactly a branch anymore as far as I know.
There is a PAGES00113 on the FTDNA project though, seems to be a man of Swiss-German patrilineal descent from the Canton of Zurich that belongs to the L-B374 branch. Surname seems to have some variations like Gut/Gutten/Guth.
I have no known ancestor from the Alpine regions on the paper trail, unless the Swiss genetic group on MyHeritage really mean something.

 

[torzio]

My test done here in Brazil isn't deep enough to go beyond M349. On the Morley predictor I got L-PAGES00113 as a result, but it seems to be really outdated and isn't exactly a branch anymore as far as I know.
There is a PAGES00113 on the FTDNA project though, seems to be a man of Swiss-German patrilineal descent from the Canton of Zurich that belongs to the L-B374 branch. Surname seems to have some variations like Gut/Gutten/Guth.
I have no known ancestor from the Alpine regions on the paper trail, unless the Swiss genetic group on MyHeritage really mean something.

interesting ................there is also a T-Pages00113

https://sites.google.com/view/ashke...aplogroup-t-y-dna-clusters-for-ashkenazi-jews


I cannot find a L-Pages00113

 

[Aemilius]

He's on the L-FT304386 branch on the L - Y Haplogroup L project on FTDNA. Most remote ancestor is one Hans Gut, from Aesch, in the Canton of Zurich.
I guess that this Hans must be a descendant of Rudi Gutten, who seems to be the founding father of a lot of Guth's/Gut's/Gutten's and Good's(on the anglicized form used in the US) with origins in Switzerland. Quite a interesting family, in my opinion.

 

[Aemilius]

My results should be coming soon, up to mid January, so it may be a good time to comment here again. Even though my own specific branch is not known yet, I´m more or less convinced that it will be the Y109374 line (called L-BY56726 on ftdna) because of it´s presumed distribution on Western Iberia (there is at least two families of Galician descent on ftdna groups and one Brazilian of probable Portuguese descent on yfull).
Galician and Portuguese families sharing ydna lineages isn´t really a surprise considering that both nations are very close historically and culturally, but how do you members think that this branch ended there on the first place? Eastern Romans? Phoenicians? Jews? Neither of those?
Hope to update here soon and discover if I´m completely wrong on the guess or not.

 

[Riverman]

I have colonial Brazilians among my matches which have fairly old German (mostly Western Germany, Alsace-Lorraine and German Swiss) ancestry. So its possible that the ethnicity estimates are wrong, but they could be right also. If you don't know all your branches in your tree back to say about 1800, its possible you have distant German ancestors. If you have a tree back to about 1750, its very unlikely you have recent (post 1700) German ancestors in Brazil.

 

[Aemilius]

I have colonial Brazilians among my matches which have fairly old German (mostly Western Germany, Alsace-Lorraine and German Swiss) ancestry. So its possible that the ethnicity estimates are wrong, but they could be right also. If you don't know all your branches in your tree back to say about 1800, its possible you have distant German ancestors. If you have a tree back to about 1750, its very unlikely you have recent (post 1700) German ancestors in Brazil.

Fair point! Most of my tree goes back to beginning of the 1800's, with some branches going up to more "famous" families of the colonial times. Only found people with typical Iberian surnames, so any German or Swiss ancestry would probably come up via NPE.
If somehow the results fall up on the Swiss-German branch in the L-B374 line, my guess would be that of some German mercenary of the times of Nieuw Holland who stayed on the Northeast. Although I have 20 matches or so with the Swiss genetic group, they are mostly Brazilians of mixed colonial-immigrant background, so the odds of just being 'oldstock' lines in common are quite big.
I do not know exactly my genetic male line beyond 1814, but the strongest candidates are all of Iberian descent.

 

[Riverman]

Fair point! Most of my tree goes back to beginning of the 1800's, with some branches going up to more "famous" families of the colonial times. Only found people with typical Iberian surnames, so any German or Swiss ancestry would probably come up via NPE.
If somehow the results fall up on the Swiss-German branch in the L-B374 line, my guess would be that of some German mercenary of the times of Nieuw Holland who stayed on the Northeast. Although I have 20 matches or so with the Swiss genetic group, they are mostly Brazilians of mixed colonial-immigrant background, so the odds of just being 'oldstock' lines in common are quite big.
I do not know exactly my genetic male line beyond 1814, but the strongest candidates are all of Iberian descent.

How many German surname matches in Europe do you have? What's the highest (cM/segments) you got? I think that should be easy to trace back, because the German groups from which Brazilians got most of their ancestry are on average well-tested autosomally. Therefore if you have such ancestors, and they are not being made up by the algorithm, you must have significant matches in that direction.

 

[Aemilius]

How many German surname matches in Europe do you have? What's the highest (cM/segments) you got? I think that should be easy to trace back, because the German groups from which Brazilians got most of their ancestry are on average well-tested autosomally. Therefore if you have such ancestors, and they are not being made up by the algorithm, you must have significant matches in that direction.

Not much matches on Germanic Europe itself. There is some remote matches with Americans (14-15cM at most) with that origin (excluding, of course, those of Azorean descent, because the connection with them is more certain), but that's it. Our Brazilian matches in common are from the regions my paternal great-grandfather came, so they are probably my relatives via my father. But Americans aren't really a good case for this kind of descent, as most of them also have British or other European ancestries. For some reason there's also a lady from Australia in the common matches.
So, the Swiss group 'legitimacy' is tenuous at best, I guess

 

[Riverman]

If you have no significant German matches (larger than 15 cM, solid segments out of pile-up zones), you likely don't have recent German ancestry of any sort.

 

[Aemilius]

If you have no significant German matches (larger than 15 cM, solid segments out of pile-up zones), you likely don't have recent German ancestry of any sort.

Yes, I think so as well. If there is any kind of distant Central European (or Northwestern European, as there is some Englishmen on this branch) descent, it must be back to the aforementioned Nieuw Holland period back in the 1600's. But this is only if B374 come up as positive, and it seems highly unlikely.
I'm more curious about those Y109374 men on Western Iberia. One of the Galician families in it, the Roybal's , came from a very small town in southern Galicia (province of Pontevedra) called Caldas de Reis. Not sure if there was any Roman, Jewish or broadly Eastern Mediterranean settlers on the region.
Maybe it came with southern Iberians to there on the Medieval era.

 

[Gao1111]

You have both L