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Thread: New map of the diffusion of the Copper Age in Europe

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow New map of the diffusion of the Copper Age in Europe



    I have created a new map showing the approximate spread of the Chalcolithic (Copper Age) from the Middle East and the Balkano-Carpathians to the rest of Europe. Please let me know if you find any inconsistency (provide supporting data).




    The oldest evidence of copper metallurgy is from the Vinča culture in Serbia around 5500 BCE. From there is quickly spread to Bulgaria (Gumelniţa-Karanovo culture, etc.), then to the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Tripyllian culture) and the Danubian basin. These cultures of 'Old Europe' would have included haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J and T (as well as I2a1 for Cucuteni-Tripyllian).

    The Khvalynsk culture in the Volga region marks the first appearance of the chalcolithic in the steppe. Copper working quickly spread in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe and associated cultures further north (Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture) and west (Corded Ware culture). This dispersal was of course linked to haplogroups R1b and R1a.

    It is noteworthy that the Maykop culture in the North Caucasus (from 3800 BCE) immediately started off as a Bronze Age culture, and apparently the world's oldest.


    The Iberian Copper Age

    I am wondering how the Copper Age started so early in southern Iberia compared to the rest of Atlantic and Mediterranean Europe. The Bell Beaker people, who seem to have originated in Portugal, are mostly responsible for the diffusion of the Chalcolithic around the Megalithic cultures of western Europe.

    I am starting to think that the Chalcolithic may have been brought directly from the Near East to southern Iberia via Sicily by J2 people. That would make sense for five reasons:

    1) it is unlikely that the Copper Age started independently in southern Iberia and nowhere else in Europe. Anatolia and Syria was the first region to develop copper metallurgy outside the Balkans. Both regions have a high percentage of haplogroup J2. Obviously the percentage of J2 in Serbia and Romania has diminished after millennia of invasions from the steppes and from other parts of Europe. Mountain-sheltered Kosovo and Albania are generally considered to be closer to the pre-Indo-European population of the Balkans, and both have a lot of J2.

    2) Agriculture was spread along the Mediterranean coasts from the Levant and reached southern Iberia as early as the Neolithic spread by land along the Danube in central Europe. This is a proof that maritime diffusion can spread new technologies much faster than on land.

    3) I long wondered how haplogroup J2 propagated outside West Asia, as its distribution in Europe appears less correlated with the Neolithic than other haplogroups (E1b1b, G2a, J1, T). I had postulated a Bronze Age expansion from Anatolia to Greece, the eastern Balkans and Italy. But why not a Chalcolithic expansion since the Bronze Age is so closely linked to haplogroups R1a and R1b ? Furthermore there happen to be a hotspot of J2 in southern Iberia, which would be much better explained by a Copper Age migration than merely by Phoenician settlements.

    4) The Copper Age started earlier in southern Italy than in central or northern Italy. The dominant lineage in southern Italy is J2.

    5) Based on all the ancient mtDNA samples tested so far, the main difference between Neolithic and Chalcolithic lineages is the greatly increased frequency of haplogroups J1, K and X, three lineages which are particularly common today in Greece, Bulgaria, Turkey, Armenia and Georgia. This also corresponds to the region from which the Copper Age emerged, which proves that there was also a certain amount of gene flow linked to the diffusion of the copper metallurgy. This regions also happens to be the one where haplogroup J2 is the most common.


    EDIT : Since there was little cultural or societal change from the Neolithic to the Chalcolithic, apart perhaps a little more prestige goods in some graves, I'd think that copper metallurgy was spread fairly peacefully by a minority of immigrants, except for the Corded Ware culture and the steppes. The Bronze Age diffusion might have been more violent justly because of the more individualistic, hierarchical and paternalistic culture of the Indo-Europeans.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 14-10-13 at 10:04.
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I would correct the time-zone of the Remedello culture zone in the map;
    The Remedello culture zone covered an area in North Italy that stretched from the Alps to south of the Garda lake and is def. within the 3500-3000 time-frame;
    Remedello culture also had strong-links to the Mondsee culture (Copper complex);

    Thomas F. X. Noble - Western Civilization: Beyond Boundaries: Vol.1 (2008)
    Similar axes have been found in northern Italian tombs in Remedello, about 240 miles south of the Alps. Before the discovery of the Iceman, archaeologists believed that Italians learned the metalwork technology needed for such an ax from Anatolia, where similar pieces of metalwork are dated to approximately 2700 to 2400 B.C. Hence the Remedello culture was usually also dated to that period. The discovery of the Iceman means that Remedello must be backdated by about five hundred years. It is clear, then, that by about 3200 B.C. northern Italians not only borrowed from the more advanced eastern Mediterranean areas but also created their own original technology and culture.


    Ötzi's - copper blade axe / late 4th mil. BC


    South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology: http://oetzi.com/en/axe

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Maciamo said: I am starting to think that the Chalcolithic may have been brought directly from the Near East to southern Iberia via Sicily by J2 people. That would make sense for four reasons:
    That was my first thought, seeing this map, that J2 were involved in spreading copper culture. It also correlates well with West Asian and Caucasian Admixture map, but the best correlation is with R1B L23 map.





    Makes me wonder if J2 and L23 entered Europe at the same time, bringing copper age to europe. Balkans and Italy distributions are almost exact matches.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 15-09-13 at 23:22.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That was my first thought, seeing this map, that J2 were involved in spreading copper culture. It also correlates well with West Asian and Caucasian Admixture map, but the best correlation is with R1B L23 map.
    It seems Y DNA J period J1 or J2 was major in the farmers that spread acroos Europe. Because it is non existent in 31 samples from Neloithic western Europe. G2a defintley was the most popular hg in at least the ones in western Europe E1b1b V13 i also think was a major Y DNA haplogroup in the farmers that spread acroos Europe. Then of course they adopted native western European I2a1a M26, central European I2a2 P214, and eastern European I2a1b M423. U can tell by aust dna there was a major amount of mid eastern inter marraige from around Syria into Italy, Greece, and southeast Europe. I cant explain it all but just look at globe3 results. I chekced the southwest asian vs west asian their is a trend in western Europe and eastern Europe but Italy, Geece, and southeast europe have their own trend a trend that is closest to around Syria.

    Also they have much much much much more than the rest of Europe. There is no doubt it came in the Greco Roman age because of the differnce between Switzerland and northern Italy even though their right next to each other, That means this mid eastern admixture happened when the Italian ethnicity had already formed. It is more popular the more south u go in Italy too. So defintley alot of J1 and J2 was brought to Italy, Greece, and southeast Europe in the Greco Roman age so not that long ago. U can see on the R1b ht35 map that Maciamo already made how it is more popular around the Mediterranean they defintley got more of the main y DNA haplogroups of west Mediterranean mid easterns so J1 and J2.

    U know about the similarity with the map of the Roman empire and J2 in Europe. So alot of J1, and J2 defintley came to Europe in the Greco Roman age to find legit pre Greco Roman J1 and J2 i would say go to areas that where not apart of the Roman empire or not that connected with the Greco Roman world like Russia, Scandinavia, most of eastern Europe, Ireland etc. I am really cautious of looking at most of J1 and J2 in Italy and southeast Europe as Neolithic. I am sure there was also some E1b1b that came in Greco Roman age.

    How do we know copper making did not begin in Serbia or eastern Europe and spread to the mid east from there. why does farming, copper, bronze, iron, and civilization all have to be from the mid east i think we assume it always starts there. I know most are but Europe was already apart of what was the modern world wouldn't they have just as much the ability to be the first to make copper.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think we need to get a complete idea of the farmers that spread acroos Europe mainly 9,000-6,000ybp. In aust dna they are obviously extremely Mediterranean more than anyone today except Sardine. If u look at the globe13 or K12b test or whatever the group they call med the two farmer samples Otzie and Gok4 are dominated by it. What is weird is no on in the mid east has even close to their percentages like in globde13 Gok4 had 64% Otzie 59% average west mid easterns will have 20-29%. The highest are in Europe even though Med is not European it came only in the Neolithic. Also sardine people their closest relatives and closest match in aust dna tests are white. How do u explain that if the farmers came from the mid east.

    The samples we have of Mesolithic hunter gathers who actulley lived by farmers. La Brana (7,000ybpnorth Spain), Ajv52 and Ajv70(5,000ybp south Swedan) all dominated by North Euro. Not since in globe13 that is the only unique group to Europe and the only to originate in Europe and is assumed to have been 100% in pre Neolithic Europeans. SInce Finnish and Sami who have the highest amount of North Euro in Europe around the same as these hunter gathers. Sami look no diff from French who have over 40% med. The Palness of Europeans so what makes them phiscalley different from other Caucasians comes from Mesloithic-Paleoithic Europeans and orignated in the group North Euro. BUt then why do for example Germans who have over 29.7% med which is not European why do they have over 30% yellow hair which they get from pre Neolithic Europeans.

    What this means is almost all Europeans are only half European and half mid eastern. I hope u get what i am saying it is so confusing. The farmers had totally pale skin even though they where dominated by non European Med. All Europeans are only about half European even though they features are almost only from the hunter gathers the paleness. So something is messed up with the group so many tests call Mediterranean. It is the only Caucasian group that does not repsent a certain area it is everywhere.

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    It seems the farmers that created Cardiel culture and LBK both where dominated by G2a. Based on their Y DNA samples also both probably dominated by Med in globe13 so probably from same father culture. It seems like the same family of farmers spread farming acroos Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Here is all mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroups from the Chaloithic/ copper age. i orignaized it from Ancient Eurasian DNA
    Ubaid culture Tell Kurdu, Amuq Turkey 5,000-4,500bc mtDNA hg=2: H3a=2

    Wadi, Isreal
    4,490-4,335bc mtDNA hg=1: U3a=1
    4,460-4,335bc mtDNA hg=1: H=1
    4,240-4,065bc mtDNA hg=1: H6=1
    3,765-3,650bc mtDNA hg=1: H=1
    Total mtDNA hg=4: H=3(H6=1), U3a=1

    Ust Tartas culture Russia 4,000-3,000bc mtDNA hg=17 U=6 (U2e=3, U5a1=2, U4=1), Z=4, C=4, A=2, D=2

    Funnel Beaker culture Gokhem, Swedan
    3,500-2,500bc mtDNA hg=3: T2b=1, H=1, J=1
    3,200-2,800bc mtDNA hg=1: H1=1
    total mtDNA hg=4: H=2(H1=1), T2b=1, J=1

    Otzie, Alps Italy 3,350-3,100bc Y DNA; G2a2a2 L91, mtDNA: K1f

    Cova da Moura Portugal 3,400bc mtDNA hg=5: H=2, X2b=1, U5 or HV2=1, H or U4(3,300bc)=1

    Ostrof Germany 3,200bc mtDNA hg=7(U5=3(U5a=1), T2e=1, K=1, J=1

    Paimogo, Portugal 3,000bc mtDNA hg=13: H=7, U=3(U4=1, U5b2*=1), H, HV* or RO=1, HV or L3*/N*=1, H or HV=1,

    Monte Canelas Portugal 3,000bc mtDNA hg=9: H=6, U5a1=1, H, HV*, or RO=1, H or V=1

    Corded ware culture Jagodno, Wroclaw Poland 2,800bc Y DNA hg=2: G?=1, I or J?=1

    Pico Ramos, Bizkaia Spain 2,790-2,100bc mtDNA hg=24: H=9, J=4, K=4, U=3, T or X=4

    Longar, Nafarroa Spain 2,580-2,450bc mtDNA hg=25: H=11, K=6, U=4, T or X=4

    Sao Paulo Portugal 2,500bc mtDNA hg=5: H=4, H, HV*, or RO=1

    Nerja, Málaga, Spain mtDNA hg=4: H=2(2,240bc, H14=1 2,240bc), H11a or L1b=1, R or H=1

    Corded ware culture Germany

    Quedlinburg, Germany 2,700-2,400bc mtDNA hg=1: H=1
    Esperstedt, Germany 2,700-2,400bc mtDNA hg=12: U=4(U5a=3(U5a1=1), U4=1), H=2(H6a1a=1), J=2, T2=1, W6=1, X=1, K=1
    Benzingerode-Heimburg, Germany 2,700-2,400bc mtDNA hg=1: H1_TB
    Alberstedt, Germany 2,700-2,400bc mtDNA hg=1: HV
    Eulau, Germany 2,600bc mtDNA hg=3: K1b=1, X2=1, U5b=1,
    Y DNA hg=2: R1a1=2

    Corded ware Germany total mtDNA hg=18: U=5(U5=4(U5a=3(U5a1=1)U5b=1), U4=1),H=4(H1_TB, H16a1a=1) J=2, X=2(X2=1), K=2(K1b=1), , T2=1, W6=1, HV=1

    Corded ware Moosweg, Spreitenbach, Switzerland 4,500bc mtDNA hg=10: H=4(H11a=2) J=3(J1c=2, J2b1a=1), U2e1=1, T2b=1, K=1

    Bell Beaker culture Germany
    Kromsdorf, Germany 2,600bc mtDNA hg=6: U=2(U2e=1, U5a1=1), W5a=1, I1a1=1, K1=1, T1a=1
    Y DNA hg=2: R1b=2(R1b1a2 M269(XR1b1a2a1a1 S21/U106)
    Quedlinburg , Germany 2,500-2,050bc mtDNA hg=6: H=5(H4a1=2, H1=2, H13a1a2c=1), J=1
    Alberstedt,Germany 2,500-2,050bc mtDNA hg=2: H=2(H3b=1)
    Rothenschirmbach,Germany 2,500-2,050bc mtDNA hg=3: H=3(H5a3=2, H3=1)
    Benzingerode-Heimburg,Germany 2,500-2,050bc mtDNA hg=1: H1e7=1

    Total Bell Beaker Germany
    mtDNA hg=18: H=11 61.1%(H1=3(H1e7=1), H3=1 (H3b=1), H5a3=1, H13a1a2c=1, H4a1=1), U=2(U2e=1, U5a1=1), W5a=1, I1a1=1, k1=1, T1a=1, J=1 5.5%

    Bell Beaker Damsbo Denmark 2,200bc mtDNA hg=2: U=2(U4=1, U5a2a=1)

    Tre Montes Navarra Spain 4,130bc mtDNA hg=4: L2=2, K or K=1, R or H=1

    Castellon de la Plana, Spain no date mtDNA hg=11: H20 (reported as L3)=3, H or U=3, H or RO=2, D=1, V=1
    maybe this link will help your german data

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    I would correct the time-zone of the Remedello culture zone in the map;
    The Remedello culture zone covered an area in North Italy that stretched from the Alps to south of the Garda lake and is def. within the 3500-3000 time-frame;
    Remedello culture also had strong-links to the Mondsee culture (Copper complex);

    Thomas F. X. Noble - Western Civilization: Beyond Boundaries: Vol.1 (2008)
    Similar axes have been found in northern Italian tombs in Remedello, about 240 miles south of the Alps. Before the discovery of the Iceman, archaeologists believed that Italians learned the metalwork technology needed for such an ax from Anatolia, where similar pieces of metalwork are dated to approximately 2700 to 2400 B.C. Hence the Remedello culture was usually also dated to that period. The discovery of the Iceman means that Remedello must be backdated by about five hundred years. It is clear, then, that by about 3200 B.C. northern Italians not only borrowed from the more advanced eastern Mediterranean areas but also created their own original technology and culture.


    Ötzi's - copper blade axe / late 4th mil. BC


    South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology: http://oetzi.com/en/axe
    So this culture was raetic or liguric as the etruscans where still in southern Germany at that time
    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...-italians.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post

    U know about the similarity with the map of the Roman empire and J2 in Europe. So alot of J1, and J2 defintley came to Europe in the Greco Roman age to find legit pre Greco Roman J1 and J2.
    Not a lot though, below 5%. Look at Roman/Celtic R1b distribution in Roman Empire. Once you leave Romance speaking countries these clades fall below 5% in Balkans, not mentioning Middle East. Even South Italy, conquered by Romans is at 5-10% level. Wouldn't you say that Roman/Celtic Y-dna should have been the most successful spreading in Roman Empire, as clads of conquerors? More successful than Js.
    We know that G was in Europe long before Roman Empire, but somehow it conforms to its borders too. Why?
    Because these were best agricultural, civilized and rich places in Europe and Middle East, and already very populated by successful farmers (E, G, Js, T, plus Rs and Is). That's why Rome had to have them, and doing so it conformed its borders to the shape of these lands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Not a lot though, below 5%. Look at Roman/Celtic R1b distribution in Roman Empire. Once you leave Romance speaking countries these clades fall below 5% in Balkans, not mentioning Middle East. Even South Italy, conquered by Romans is at 5-10% level. Wouldn't you say that Roman/Celtic Y-dna should have been the most successful spreading in Roman Empire, as clads of conquerors? More successful than Js.
    We know that G was in Europe long before Roman Empire, but somehow it conforms to its borders too. Why?
    Because these were best agricultural, civilized and rich places in Europe and Middle East, and already very populated by successful farmers (E, G, Js, T, plus Rs and Is). That's why Rome had to have them, and doing so it conformed its borders to the shape of these lands.
    I see what ur saying about Y DNA J2. For some reason Rome just didn't spread R1b S28 bu that doesn't mean they couldnt spread J2 why do u think it is more popular in southern England. And u have to look at what i was saying before with the aust dna it is obvious huge mid eastern inter marriage form around Syria came to Italy and southeast Europe in the Greco Roman age. and that it defintley brought some J1 and J2 and even some E1b1b. with saying where J2 was had the most civilized people. From what i can tell from the Roman writing i have read they considered all the Celts all the Germans as uncivilized primitive people they say it straight up like 50 times so i know they meant it. Also so much happened in Europe from the Neolithic age to the iron age. the Invading Germanic Italo Celts with R1b1a2a1a L11 conquered the people descended from Neolithic cultures they were also MORE ADVANCED had better weapons a big reason why they conquered. I am not an expert on those cultures but i am pretty sure Maciamo would back me up on that. Otzie the 5,300 year old G2a farmer doenst seem that civilized to me. So that idea doesn't really make sense.

    Also for Y DNA G u should say G2a. Its borders and where it is most popular has probably changed alot in Europe since the Neolithic. The reason is such huge migrations u know invading GErmanic Italo Celts had some G2a and spread it certain areas some invalid groups had more some had less. Macimao argues for a Indo European g2a branch that is very popular in Europe. So u don't know if G2a people where most popular in Italy or the alps 6,000ybp. Also some areas have less Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a Mainly Italy. I don't think ur considering all the factors.

    I think it is alot more complicated. I don't know that much about the history but the mid east was the begging of the civilized world if anything Rome wanted to dominate the Mediterranean because that was like the western world is today. Most of Romes empire was in former Hallstatt/La Tene Celtic land and in Europe period. and u know they where not as civilized as for example Persia or the Assyrians. Rome said so many times about how primitive the Gauls where they included mid eastern nations as apart as the civilized world but not the Celts. Back then all of Europe except Italy and Greece was second world they where kind of in the same world as the mid east they could understand sword farming and had been trading for a while but not civilized. So if ur idea that Rome conquered the richest and most civilized then doesn't make sense.

    I forget but i think Ceasar used is excuse for conquering the Gauls as they had been a threat and harassing Rome for hundreds of years and he had to get done with them but i don't know. Same reason i am pretty sure they attacked Germans and Parthians aka Persians which both they never conquered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That was my first thought, seeing this map, that J2 were involved in spreading copper culture. It also correlates well with West Asian and Caucasian Admixture map, but the best correlation is with R1B L23 map.





    Makes me wonder if J2 and L23 entered Europe at the same time, bringing copper age to europe. Balkans and Italy distributions are almost exact matches.
    doubt it remember when i showed the aust dna stuff and about huge amount of inter marriage form around syria into Italy and southeast Europe during the Greco Roman age. I am sure alot of J1 and J2 came and also R1b L23 which is why its is around the med sea. Also Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 is what spread in west europe with Germanic Italo Celts age estimated from FTDNA totally back it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have created a new map showing the approximate spread of the Chalcolithic (Copper Age) from the Middle East and the Balkano-Carpathians to the rest of Europe. Please let me know if you find any inconsistency (provide supporting data).




    The oldest evidence of copper metallurgy is from the Vinča culture in Serbia around 5500 BCE. From there is quickly spread to Bulgaria (Gumelniţa-Karanovo culture, etc.), then to the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Tripyllian culture) and the Danubian basin. These cultures of 'Old Europe' would have included haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J and T (as well as I2a1 for Cucuteni-Tripyllian).

    The Khvalynsk culture in the Volga region marks the first appearance of the chalcolithic in the steppe. Copper working quickly spread in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe and associated cultures further north (Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture) and west (Corded Ware culture). This dispersal was of course linked to haplogroups R1b and R1a.

    It is noteworthy that the Maykop culture in the North Caucasus (from 3800 BCE) immediately started off as a Bronze Age culture, and apparently the world's oldest.


    The Iberian Copper Age

    I am wondering how the Copper Age started so early in southern Iberia compared to the rest of Atlantic and Mediterranean Europe. The Bell Beaker people, who seem to have originated in Portugal, are mostly responsible for the diffusion of the Chalcolithic around the Megalithic cultures of western Europe.

    I am starting to think that the Chalcolithic may have been brought directly from the Near East to southern Iberia via Sicily by J2 people. That would make sense for four reasons:

    1) it is unlikely that the Copper Age started independently in southern Iberia and nowhere else in Europe. Anatolia and Syria was the first region to develop copper metallurgy outside the Balkans. Both regions have a high percentage of haplogroup J2. Obviously the percentage of J2 in Serbia and Romania has diminished after millennia of invasions from the steppes and from other parts of Europe. Mountain-sheltered Kosovo and Albania are generally considered to be closer to the pre-Indo-European population of the Balkans, and both have a lot of J2.

    2) Agriculture was spread along the Mediterranean coasts from the Levant and reached southern Iberia as early as the Neolithic spread by land along the Danube in central Europe. This is a proof that maritime diffusion can spread new technologies much faster than on land.

    3) I long wondered how haplogroup J2 propagated outside West Asia, as its distribution in Europe appears less correlated with the Neolithic than other haplogroups (E1b1b, G2a, J1, T). I had postulated a Bronze Age expansion from Anatolia to Greece, the eastern Balkans and Italy. But why not a Chalcolithic expansion since the Bronze Age is so closely linked to haplogroups R1a and R1b ? Furthermore there happen to be a hotspot of J2 in southern Iberia, which would be much better explained by a Copper Age migration than merely by Phoenician settlements.

    4) The Copper Age started earlier in southern Italy than in central or northern Italy. The dominant lineage in southern Italy is J2.


    EDIT : Since there was little cultural or societal change from the Neolithic to the Chalcolithic, apart perhaps a little more prestige goods in some graves, I'd think that copper metallurgy was spread fairly peacefully by a minority of immigrants, except for the Corded Ware culture and the steppes. The Bronze Age diffusion might have been more violent justly because of the more individualistic, hierarchical and paternalistic culture of the Indo-Europeans.

    In addition to the post-dating required for the Remedello copper culture because of the fact that Otzi was carrying a Remedello dagger in 3300 BC, there are studies that provide carbon 14 dating for numerous Chalcolithic sites in northern Italy See B Bagolini and P Biagi: http://www.academia.edu/2338525/B._B...Northern_Italy

    The second column lists the calibrated BC dates. (page 16) Libiola is a copper mine in western Liguria. It is dated here to about 3300 B.C. I have seen dating by other authors that puts it at 3600 B.C. , not 3300 B.C.

    There is a Map (e) (page 18) which shows the Chalcolithic sites in Italy, including the mine in western Liguria and sites south of the Po River.

    This seems to be the same view as that expressed by Mallory, who dates Remedello to 3300 BC:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=tzU...ulture&f=false

    The dates for Remedello are earlier in more recent papers such as the following, which dates Remedello I to 3400 BC.
    L'eta del rame nel versante italiano delle Alpi centro-occidentali
    http://www.iipp.it/?p=575


    And also, this 2011 paper:
    La prima metallurgia in Italia central alla luce di nuove date radiometriche, which dates central Italian Rinaldone culture finds to 3485 to 3101 BC.

    http://www.academia.edu/1477965/Dolf..._e_Protostoria

    In this paper they reference an earlier paper, Aranguren B. 2006, which dated finds of Remedello type copper in a burial in Massa Marittima on the border of eastern Liguria to 3644-3031 B.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In addition to the post-dating required for the Remedello copper culture because of the fact that Otzi was carrying a Remedello dagger in 3300 BC, there are studies that provide carbon 14 dating for numerous Chalcolithic sites in northern Italy See B Bagolini and P Biagi: http://www.academia.edu/2338525/B._B...Northern_Italy

    The second column lists the calibrated BC dates. (page 16) Libiola is a copper mine in western Liguria. It is dated here to about 3300 B.C. I have seen dating by other authors that puts it at 3600 B.C. , not 3300 B.C.

    There is a Map (e) (page 18) which shows the Chalcolithic sites in Italy, including the mine in western Liguria and sites south of the Po River.

    This seems to be the same view as that expressed by Mallory, who dates Remedello to 3300 BC:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=tzU...ulture&f=false

    The dates for Remedello are earlier in more recent papers such as the following, which dates Remedello I to 3400 BC.
    L'eta del rame nel versante italiano delle Alpi centro-occidentali
    http://www.iipp.it/?p=575


    And also, this 2011 paper:
    La prima metallurgia in Italia central alla luce di nuove date radiometriche, which dates central Italian Rinaldone culture finds to 3485 to 3101 BC.

    http://www.academia.edu/1477965/Dolf..._e_Protostoria

    In this paper they reference an earlier paper, Aranguren B. 2006, which dated finds of Remedello type copper in a burial in Massa Marittima on the border of eastern Liguria to 3644-3031 B.C.
    thanks


    the maciano map looked more like Varna instead of vinca culture

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In addition to the post-dating required for the Remedello copper culture because of the fact that Otzi was carrying a Remedello dagger in 3300 BC, there are studies that provide carbon 14 dating for numerous Chalcolithic sites in northern Italy See B Bagolini and P Biagi: http://www.academia.edu/2338525/B._B...Northern_Italy

    The second column lists the calibrated BC dates. (page 16) Libiola is a copper mine in western Liguria. It is dated here to about 3300 B.C. I have seen dating by other authors that puts it at 3600 B.C. , not 3300 B.C.

    There is a Map (e) (page 18) which shows the Chalcolithic sites in Italy, including the mine in western Liguria and sites south of the Po River.

    This seems to be the same view as that expressed by Mallory, who dates Remedello to 3300 BC:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=tzU...ulture&f=false

    The dates for Remedello are earlier in more recent papers such as the following, which dates Remedello I to 3400 BC.
    L'eta del rame nel versante italiano delle Alpi centro-occidentali
    http://www.iipp.it/?p=575


    And also, this 2011 paper:
    La prima metallurgia in Italia central alla luce di nuove date radiometriche, which dates central Italian Rinaldone culture finds to 3485 to 3101 BC.

    http://www.academia.edu/1477965/Dolf..._e_Protostoria

    In this paper they reference an earlier paper, Aranguren B. 2006, which dated finds of Remedello type copper in a burial in Massa Marittima on the border of eastern Liguria to 3644-3031 B.C.
    Duly noted. I have added the Po valley, Tuscany and the Latium in the 3500-3000 BCE period (until further evidence is found for the rest of Italy).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Duly noted. I have added the Po valley, Tuscany and the Latium in the 3500-3000 BCE period (until further evidence is found for the rest of Italy).
    It is crazy the R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celts conquered so many peoples including probably descendants of the cultures and tribes Otzie was apart of. If u think about it they arrived just 2,610 years before Breenus and Gauls sacked Rome in 390bc. So the were like what Estrucans are to us. In the last 1,400 years western Europe has been in a stand still no huge migrations . But in those 2,610 years there were so many major migrations that changed the Y DNA percentages in western Europe so majorly. Germanic Italo Celts arrived in about 3,000bc and by 500bc(2,500 years) 50% of west European paternal lineages was under R1b1a2a1a L11 they were more popular than today since the British isles would all be over 80%. It is so hard to figure out what language families existed in western Europe during when Germanic Italo Celts arrived were they descended from what arrived with the spread of farming.

    I defintley think that Aquitaine and Iberian descend from languages before Germanic Italo celts arrived. Are they related to each other were they apart of a bigger language family in western Europe. What language was in Italy the Italics came in just 1,200-1,000bc. There was another language family in Swedan and Norway not Uralic and Germanic probably related to Balto Slavic since it would have come from Corded ware culture or up north u could have had a language from hunter gathers which would be related to what was in Finland over 8,000ybp. I wish these answers could be answered. The Germanic Italo Celts spread so rapidley and made such huge effects in Y DNA. Celtic and GErmanic languages had only been separate for about 2,000 years at the begging of the Roman empire but were so different i dont get that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    So this culture was raetic or liguric as the etruscans where still in southern Germany at that time
    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...-italians.html
    Thats an awesome study, thanks for the link; didnt know about it;

    Ghirotto et al 2013 -
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0055519

    But the question remains; based on the results: that Etruscan mtDNA clusters closest to Neolithic CEU and modern-day South German; How much of that mtDNA was non-Indo-European Pelasagian Tyrsenoi and how much was of the pre-existing Indo-European Umbrian population?

    Something also the study points out:
    'As for the Etruscans’ origins, ancient DNA is of little use, because pre-Etruscan dwellers of Central Italy, of the Villanovan culture, cremated their dead [1], and hence their genetic features are unknown'

    The Blog you link it to also has an attempt in defining the mtDNA Hg's of these Etruscan samples;
    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...-comments.html

    A lot of JT and a lot of U5;


    Archaeology already confirms Villanova II to be a Hybrid culture of incoming sophisticated East-Medit. Pelasgians and the pre-existing Bronze-age Umbrians of Villanova I (which in turn must have incorperated elements of the remnant Neolithic populations) - and the Anthropology of the mixed Etruscan cemeteries clearly shows the Etruscan civilization to be a Hybrid of Brachycephalic and Dolichocephalic Caucasoid elements;

    This all for me manifests the Historical accounts of Dionysius of Halicarnassus (and Herodotus) that the non-Indo-European Pelasgian Tyrsenoi from the East-Medit. settled amongst the former Bronze-age Indo-European Umbrians and mixed with its female population;

    A scenario that is also manifested in many Etruscan frescoes (just one example):

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There are only 14 Estrucan mtDNa samples not enough. and if u go by tradtional view they came form Antolia around 3,500-3,000ybp and these remains are around 2,800ybp they deifntley had time to inter marry with Italians. No way do these mtDNA samples mean anything.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    There are only 14 Estrucan mtDNa samples not enough.
    It is 30 Etruscan mtDNA samples from 6 diff. Etruscan sites spanning from the 7th - 1st cen. BC
    not enough but very solid and revealing to begin with;

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    and if u go by tradtional view they came form Antolia around 3,500-3,000ybp and these remains are around 2,800ybp they deifntley had time to inter marry with Italians.
    Thats exactly what i pointed out to;

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    No way do these mtDNA samples mean anything.
    The results def. mean something; especially in the clear context of the Etruscan Civilization;

    In order to get the meaning of these results you need to read Dionysius, Thucydides and Herodotus;
    And take a good look at the Villanova culture complex (Archaeology) and its shift from Bronze-age to Iron-age;

    Its all already Archaeologically, Anthropologically and Historically attested; Now Genetics is manifesting it;

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think people trust way way way way way way way to much on ancient mtDNA. I see big time experts make big theory's about Neolithic Europeans from 30 mtDNA samples its just sad. When i orignaized all the mtDNA from the Neloithic age showed by Ancient Eurasia DNA i saw from over 200 in Europe around 100 in Central Europe and Iberia a total continuity with modern Europeans they went by the same basic rules same with the copper age mtDNA. BUt why does Europe and the mid east have such similar percentages of haplogroups and even subclades if the reason why all Europeans are so similar is the same then it was set up in the Neloithic at least. No matter how u put it Europeans are mainly pre Neloithic decended from people who came over 30,000ybp.

    What proves it is aust dna were in globe13 and others they find distinct European group North Euro. And when u look at the origin of European palness all of Europeans palness skin color, hair color, and eye color exists in other Caucasians but for some reason became very popular and dominate in Europeans ancestors what i am trying to say is that is another thing that makes Europeans distinct and not from Neolithic mid easterns. Look at Sami and Finnish those areas almost not effected at all by the Neolithic age both are about 80% north euro in globe13 test but they have the European look Finnish are actulley the palest so u see what i am saying.

    It is about time they get some y DNA that will get a better idea it is hard to trust mtDNA samples even with 100's i cant really say i have a for sure theory on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    I think people trust way way way way way way way to much on ancient mtDNA. I see big time experts make big theory's about Neolithic Europeans from 30 mtDNA samples its just sad.
    It's ironic that you should say that when you are the one who started replying in this thread with 4 posts on ancient mtDNA, when I never mentioned it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's ironic that you should say that when you are the one who started replying in this thread with 4 posts on ancient mtDNA, when I never mentioned it.
    I just wanted to show the DNA there is from the copper age. If anything i think it shows continuity with modern Europeans but i still think u cant make major theory's on specific little tribes with mtDNA like i have heard people do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    The Iberian Copper Age

    I am wondering how the Copper Age started so early in southern Iberia compared to the rest of Atlantic and Mediterranean Europe. The Bell Beaker people, who seem to have originated in Portugal, are mostly responsible for the diffusion of the Chalcolithic around the Megalithic cultures of western Europe.

    I am starting to think that the Chalcolithic may have been brought directly from the Near East to southern Iberia via Sicily by J2 people. That would make sense for five reasons:

    1) it is unlikely that the Copper Age started independently in southern Iberia and nowhere else in Europe. Anatolia and Syria was the first region to develop copper metallurgy outside the Balkans. Both regions have a high percentage of haplogroup J2. Obviously the percentage of J2 in Serbia and Romania has diminished after millennia of invasions from the steppes and from other parts of Europe. Mountain-sheltered Kosovo and Albania are generally considered to be closer to the pre-Indo-European population of the Balkans, and both have a lot of J2.

    2) Agriculture was spread along the Mediterranean coasts from the Levant and reached southern Iberia as early as the Neolithic spread by land along the Danube in central Europe. This is a proof that maritime diffusion can spread new technologies much faster than on land.

    3) I long wondered how haplogroup J2 propagated outside West Asia, as its distribution in Europe appears less correlated with the Neolithic than other haplogroups (E1b1b, G2a, J1, T). I had postulated a Bronze Age expansion from Anatolia to Greece, the eastern Balkans and Italy. But why not a Chalcolithic expansion since the Bronze Age is so closely linked to haplogroups R1a and R1b ? Furthermore there happen to be a hotspot of J2 in southern Iberia, which would be much better explained by a Copper Age migration than merely by Phoenician settlements.

    4) The Copper Age started earlier in southern Italy than in central or northern Italy. The dominant lineage in southern Italy is J2.

    5) Based on all the ancient mtDNA samples tested so far, the main difference between Neolithic and Chalcolithic lineages is the greatly increased frequency of haplogroups J1, K and X, three lineages which are particularly common today in Greece, Bulgaria, Turkey, Armenia and Georgia. This also corresponds to the region from which the Copper Age emerged, which proves that there was also a certain amount of gene flow linked to the diffusion of the copper metallurgy. This regions also happens to be the one where haplogroup J2 is the most common.


    EDIT : Since there was little cultural or societal change from the Neolithic to the Chalcolithic, apart perhaps a little more prestige goods in some graves, I'd think that copper metallurgy was spread fairly peacefully by a minority of immigrants, except for the Corded Ware culture and the steppes. The Bronze Age diffusion might have been more violent justly because of the more individualistic, hierarchical and paternalistic culture of the Indo-Europeans.
    It seems to me Copper metallurgy was develloped in the Balkans by J2b.
    Neolithic in Italy and Iberia was brought by G2a, a combination of fishermen at sea and farmers, also trading obsidian.
    Los Millares was founded +/- 5200 years ago. It was the time when longer distance trade overseas started in the Mediterranean :
    - Cyclades culture
    - Trade between Aegean and Black Sea, founding of Troy.
    I think Los Millares was founded by J2a colonists who saw the potentials of the local copper deposits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    It seems to me Copper metallurgy was develloped in the Balkans by J2b.
    Neolithic in Italy and Iberia was brought by G2a, a combination of fishermen at sea and farmers, also trading obsidian.
    Los Millares was founded +/- 5200 years ago. It was the time when longer distance trade overseas started in the Mediterranean :
    - Cyclades culture
    - Trade between Aegean and Black Sea, founding of Troy.
    I think Los Millares was founded by J2a colonists who saw the potentials of the local copper deposits.
    You can't say something is developed by a Haplogroup. What we know today is that the Vinca culture of the balkans developed "copper" metallurgy. This was around 5500bc or eralier.
    So who were the Vinca people? In my eyes they were a admixture of Near Eastern and mesolithic people from Europe. That means they could have I2a, G2a, J1, J2b and maybe r1a.
    But they weren't exlusively J2b people.
    BUT it can also be possible that "j2b" groups adapted it by passing the balkans into europe. everything is possible.
    And pls watch the Haplogroup I map, it fits with the copper age shematic map, too.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Allow me some latitude to be a crank here.. (and come up with more crazy Altaic theories)

    But let me suggest that cold working natural copper may have its origins in the Altai of Siberia and from thence later spread Eastward with the mound-building, copper cultures of North America, and earlier westward with the introgression of R peoples into the Near East. It doesn't surprise me that it appears in the Balkans with the Vinca or with the Halafian/Samarran cultures in Syria/Southern Anatolia whose identity or proximity to West Asian cultures has been proposed/hotely debated.

    There are several reasons to believe copper working started in the Altai:
    1. The melting of the graciers left large quantities of naturally occuring, scoured 99% copper ore exposed on the ground. This is important because most copper in later ages required extraction and refinement. No other scenario of less pure copper, much less extraction, makes any sense.
    2. Exposed, un-extracted copper is most common in this part of the world, very much unlike the Near East. Even today, the Siberian state which includes Yenesia is one of the top five copper producers. This is incredible given the other producers, including the U.S., explore and produce mostly new, deep earth areas.
    3. Cold working Glacial copper and Meteroic iron are the most intuitive scenarios in which early man would find interest. Cold working with hammer stones is how the Great Lakes indians worked copper into beautiful ornamental devices. Again, IMHO, this can only happen in a glacial environment in its beginning stages.
    4. The dating of Native American cold worked copper is a clear outlier to the supposed Near Eastern spread of copper working, unless both are derived from population movements originating in Northern Siberia.

    Most importantly, the appearance of copper smithing in the Near East is too advanced in its incipient phase. A long prerequiste period of cold working natural ore should be expected. The Near East/Balkans is not a good place to walk along an trip on natural ore.
    Metallurgy in any form in most periods appears to spread with R1b people from SW Asia throughout the Near East, Africa, China and Western Europe and with a second wave of Q people in the Americas.


    **EDIT** The map does look accurate based on current data. Thought I would clarify that. I'm not sure though if the grey areas are intentional or due to a lack of data.
    Last edited by Tabaccus Maximus; 23-12-13 at 13:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srbo View Post
    You can't say something is developed by a Haplogroup. What we know today is that the Vinca culture of the balkans developed "copper" metallurgy. This was around 5500bc or eralier.
    So who were the Vinca people? In my eyes they were a admixture of Near Eastern and mesolithic people from Europe. That means they could have I2a, G2a, J1, J2b and maybe r1a.
    But they weren't exlusively J2b people.
    BUT it can also be possible that "j2b" groups adapted it by passing the balkans into europe. everything is possible.
    And pls watch the Haplogroup I map, it fits with the copper age shematic map, too.
    First copper melting was in the eastern part of Albania/Serbia, 7500 years ago.
    Cold copper working was done before that in Anatolia.
    That is why I think J2b, they came from there.
    But it may have been J1, and also G2a was there. It seems tough that J2b were the pioneers who started farming in Greece and the Balkans later on.
    I don't think I2a and R1a were in that area 7500 years ago, they came later.
    When the farmers arrived in the Balkans, the Balkans were in large parts uninhabited.

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