Analysis of R1b subclades in Scandinavia

[Maciamo]

I had a look at the Scandinavian Y-DNA Project (essentially Sweden and Norway) and Denmark DNA Project at FTDNA and counted the members for each subclade of R1b, eliminating members of non-Scandinavian origin and duplicates.

Within the P312* in the first project I managed to identify 2 haplotypes matching the North-South cluster (DF27) and 2 matching the Norse cluster (L238). I didn't include M269 members who weren't tested for deep subclades so as not to disrupt the balance.

There is about 30% of R1b in Scandinavia, so multiply the percentages by 0.3 to get the frequency in the whole population.

R1b subclade	Number	Percentage within R1b
L23	4	3.6%
U106/S21	43	38.7%
P310/L11*	3	2.7%
P312*	13	11.7%
L238	6	5.4%
DF27	4	3.6%
L21	28	25.2%
U152/S28	10	9%

I listed 111 R1b individuals in total.

P312 and its subclades make up 55% of all Scandinavian R1b, enough to break the stereotype that U106 is the only Germanic branch of R1b. Naturally a lot of L21 could be attributed to Irish and Scottish slaves brought by the Vikings, but that cannot explain all subclades.

L238 appears to be almost exclusively of Scandinavian origin (more so than U106) and is indeed referred to as the Norse cluster of R1b by Ken Nordtvedt. All the L238 members at FTDNA are located in south-west Sweden (around Gothenburg).

It's harder to explain how so much U152 got to Scandinavia. It might have come with Celtic northward migrations during the Bronze and/or Iron ages, and/or with migration from (southern) Germany since the Middle Ages. The U152 members at FTDNA are concentrated in Denmark and along the Swedish-Norwegian border, in a straight north-south axis.

The P310/L11* individuals are all Danish, but perhaps just because nobody tested for this SNP in the Sweden-Norway project.

[Degredado]

That's surprising, Scandinavian R1b being 55% P312 and less than 40% U106. I imagine those numbers were probably inverse until the viking age.

With all that L21 in Scandinavia, can it be parallelly assumed that a good chunk of the R1a and N1c (particularly in Sweden) might have come from Baltic/Rus slaves, or do they belong to markedly different subclades?

[Mikewww]

That's surprising, Scandinavian R1b being 55% P312 and less than 40% U106. I imagine those numbers were probably inverse until the viking age.

With all that L21 in Scandinavia, can it be parallelly assumed that a good chunk of the R1a and N1c (particularly in Sweden) might have come from Baltic/Rus slaves, or do they belong to markedly different subclades?

I think there is too much P312 to attribute to slave imports during the Viking age. I am not saying there would not be any, but just not the lion's share of P312 could be accounted for in this way.

Another view of the geographic dispersion of the R1b in Scandinavia is from the Old Norway project. You can see it in this thread.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post413475

It particularly doesn't make sense for any R1b-P312>U152 in Scandinavia to have come from the British Isles.

[Degredado]

I think there is too much P312 to attribute to slave imports during the Viking age. I am not saying there would not be any, but just not the lion's share of P312 could be accounted for in this way.

Another view of the geographic dispersion of the R1b in Scandinavia is from the Old Norway project. You can see it in this thread.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post413475

It particularly doesn't make sense for any R1b-P312>U152 in Scandinavia to have come from the British Isles.

Yeah, I agree with you, there is just too much P312. I do think, however, that the vast majority of the L21 can probably be traced to British Isles slaves (unlike the other subclades of P312, which seem more "naturally" widespread").

[Mikewww]

That's surprising, Scandinavian R1b being 55% P312 and less than 40% U106. I imagine those numbers were probably inverse until the viking age.

I'm not sure about that there being a reversal of prior to the Viking Age. I think U106 made it to Scandinavia fairly lately, before the Viking Age of course but maybe as late as the expansion of the Proto-Germanic speaking groups, which could have formed a little south, in the Jastorf culture area.

I've found greater diversity for U106 east of the Jutland Peninsula, i.e. Pomerania and along the Baltic. We also have more more the 390=24 types of U106 to south towards the Alps.

U106 diversity in Scandinavia is low, lower than either Germany or England.

I don't know if this is particularly pertinent, but Ken Nordvedt is now saying I1 is older in the Old Prussian tribal area, i.e. Lithuania.

[Mikewww]

We have R1b ancient DNA found at Kromsdorf, Germany at Bell Beaker site. Unfortunately they could not do a lot of SNP testing on it but my understanding was they confirmed he was U106-. They could not validate a P312 status. That was 2600 BC or so if I remember correctly.
We know some types of R1b were found in Bell Beaker folks. We don't know if all Bell Beaker groups had R1b but at least some in Thuringia did.

Some types of Beaker folks could have provided the vehicle for getting various forms of P312 into Scandinavia early on.

“The Norwegian Coast; so much so fast” by Christopher Prescott, Institute of Archaeology, University of Oslo, Norway -

"The Late Neolithic (the “LN”, 2350-1750 BC) in Norway can be regarded as the initiation of the Bronze Age in southern and coastal Norway. LN-developments were probably sparked by Beaker influences, conceivably also migration, from northern Jutland in Denmark to Lista and Jæren in Southern Norway, and are thus part of wider southern Scandinavian development around the Battle Axe Period to LN Beaker transition. From these geographically and chronologically restricted beginnings, early LN technology, modes of production and culture quickly spread throughout southern and coastal replacing older social, cultural and production forms, and redefining a historical trajectory. Spreading perhaps as far as 1000 km from the Beaker areas in Lista and Rogaland, the speed in which these wide-reaching and dramatic changes took place is equally remarkable, perhaps taking place within a generation. This paper discusses processes and mechanisms that may help in understanding this puzzling outcome of mid third millennium processes."

http://events.um.edu.mt/eaa2008/prescott.pdf

“Late Neolithic Expansion to Norway – Memories of a Sea-borne Episode” by Einar Østmo, Museum of Cultural History, University of Oslo, Norway -

"During the Early and Middle Neolithic, South Scandinavian Neolithic cultures were present in Norway foremost in the Oslo Fiord region in SE Norway. Late Neolithic finds are however abundant above all in SW Norway, certainly testifying to the opening of the sea route across the Skagerrak. These finds include Bell Beaker pottery and pressure-flaked points with tang and barbs, in addition to numerous flint daggers and other items. Arguably, the sea-borne expansion was connected with recent inventions concerning shipbuilding, probably made possible by the new metal tools, foremost axes. This marks the beginning of the Northern shipbuilding tradition, distinct from those found in Britain and in the Mediterranean and gave rise to the development of Scandinavian shipbuilding during the Bronze and Iron Ages.

http://events.um.edu.mt/eaa2008/prescott.pdf

“Bell Beaker Communities in Thy: The First Bronze Age Society in Denmark” by Prieto-Martinez, M Pilar Oct 2008

"This article presents the conclusions of a study of pottery from an open-air Bell Beaker settlement in Thy, northern Jutland, Denmark. The formal characteristics of all of the pottery documented from the site, a total of 140 vessels, are provided. Sherds from the Bell Beaker tradition are accorded particular interest. A study of the distribution of the pottery at the site is presented. Finally, taking into account data from publications in Denmark, the interpretation focuses on characterizing the ceramic style of Bell Beaker contexts, verifying if domestic and funerary contexts respond to the same formal pattern, as well as their possible relationship with neighbouring regions in Europe. It would seem that the Bell Beaker period was a time of such intense social transformation that the pattern of rationality was transformed to the point that we may speak of the first Bronze Age societies in Denmark. This situation is not only reflected in the general material culture, and the Bell Beaker pottery in particular, but also in the results of human activity seen in the available archaeological record. Furthermore, although this study focuses on Denmark, it may be seen that the processes found are not particular to specific geographic circumstances. Instead, they form part of a broad, European dynamic, a change on a European scale. Power over things became power over people. (Kristiansen 2004:267)"

http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/ar...ociety-denmark

“Male symbols or warrior identities? The ‘archery burials’ of the Danish Bell Beaker Culture” by Torben Sarauw - March 2007

"The starting point of this paper is an analysis of 66 Danish burials, which contain flint daggers and archery equipment. The paper examines whether this tradition should be seen as an indication of the presence of organised warriors in the Danish early Late Neolithic, or if it rather reflects some kind of general warrior status related to maleness. In a Danish perspective the archery burials are closely connected to the Bell Beaker Culture of northern Jutland, and the custom seems to originate in the European Bell Beaker Culture, where ranked societies and warrior institutions have been argued to exist."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...78416506000365

"Danish Bell Beaker Pottery and Flint Daggers - the Display of Social Identities? by Torben Sarauw - April 2008

"This article summarizes and discusses recent research into the Danish Bell Beaker phenomenon c.2350-1950 BC. Its focus is on the meaning of material culture here represented by Bell Beakers and bifacial lanceolate flint daggers, both seen from a social perspective. The Bell Beaker pottery is known to have had a very wide distribution. However, questions remain as to why Bell Beakers were only adopted in some regions and what meaning this special pottery had? Similarly the Danish type I daggers, which were manufactured within the context of the Danish Bell Beaker phenomenon in the northern parts of Jutland, had a wide distribution. daggers of this type, which in general denote male identity, were exported in vast quantities, especially to Norway and the western parts of Sweden. In both case studies the evidence from a Danish Bell Beaker settlement site excavated in recent years - Bejsebakken - plays a major part."

My guess is that P312 proportions in Scandinavia were higher than current numbers before the Jastorf Expansion. Sometime between the Jastorf Culture and the Anglo-Saxon expansion into the British Isles, U106 also increased in the Scandinavian Peninsula. That's my speculation based on the diversity and distribution of U106.

Think about this. The Vikings intertwined with the Irish and the Scots along many coastal areas. Those are not hotspots for U106. We are more likely to see I1 and R1a popping up in non-English areas were we would expect Viking input. I think the case is good that some P312 in the Isles is of Viking origin, which is what is suspected of L165 and L238.

Nothing has been proven. This is just food for thought.

[Nobody1]

It particularly doesn't make sense for any R1b-P312>U152 in Scandinavia to have come from the British Isles.

Not sure why you associate U152 with the British Isles;
L21 would be more fitting also for the Viking slave-trade;

[ebAmerican]

Looking at L238 from the Scandinavian YDNA Project and there are only 4 individuals who tested positive for the SNP. I looked at their STR diversity and the greatest distance at 37 Markers was 7. I plugged the numbers into a TMRCA calculator and it came out as 80% probable that the individuals share a TMRCA of 46 generations or less. This puts a 80% probability at 1150YBP and 97% at 1637YBP (using 25years/generation). I know the sample is tiny, but these men share a common ancestor that lived post AD.
http://freepages.misc.rootsweb.ances...rca-calc.shtml

U152 in Scandinavian is probably from the same migration as other P312 subclades from France, Switzerland, and Northern Italy. The Austrian samples I would guess are North Italian, like the Bashkirs. I continue to see P312 subclades entering Scandinavia in the Germanic Migration, Hunnic wars, Slavic migration, or later in the medieval times. I don't see any evidence showing these subclades north of the Rhine before 0AD.

Every time I see Scandinavian data for P312 subclades the TMRCA is within the last 2000 years.

[Fire Haired]

i am pretty sure western Norway the area with the most red hair and R1b L21 in Scandinavia had alot of Scottish immigrants in the 1800's. All the R1b L21 can probably be traced back to contact with people in the British isles mainly in the Viking age. So 1,500ybp that means 40% of R1b in this area was R1b S116/P312 subclades. I am pretty sure R1b Df27 is the CeltIberian branch i have no idea how that got to Scandinavia. There is no way it originated there they probably got it from contact with a group of Celts.I am shocked by the 11.7% R1b P312/S116* that is the original Italo Celtic R1b form i wonder how popular it is in France and south Germany the area it originated. Since there is 11.7% R1b P312/S116* in these samples i bet the R1b L238 which is a son of R1b P312/S116* formed out of R1b P312.S116* that had already been in this area of Scandinavia.Maybe when proto German speakers were in central Europe 4,000-5,000ybp with proto Italo Celtic speakers they mixed. So when Germans went to south Scandinavia and started the Nordic bronze age they brought some R1b P312/S116. This is not alot of samples but how did they get 9% Italo/Hallstatt Celtic R1b S28/U152. This haplogroup probably originated in Urnfield culture or Unetice culture in central Europe 3,500-5,000ybp. I guess since Urnfield culture did extend all the way to northern Germany it could be from inter marriage. Also even though i guess German speakers probably only lived in the Netherlands, north Germany, and south Scandinavia 3,500ybp. The R1b S21/U106 orignally came from central Germany it would make sense that there were still people in central Germany that spoke a related language to German and had R1b S21. I put the haplotype of a 3,000 year old R1b sample in Urnfield culture from central Germany into Haplogroup predictors all said it was for sure R1b S21 in my opinion that is prove there was contact with R1b S21 people and R1b S28 people in central Germany. Those central Germans could have been some how connected with German speakers more north and brought R1b S28.I did not know there was R1b L23* in Europe period. Maciamo this is a question on a national Genographic test it said my dad was R1b P310 does this mean P310* or they just dd not go any deeper than that.

[Degredado]

Fire Haired, I've taken the Geno 2.0 test as well and my result was also R-P310. From what I've gathered, Geno 2.0 doesn't test for P312, but it tests for L21, U152, U106 and various SNP's under these. They also don't test for DF27 (although they also test for a few SNP's under DF27). Nobody really knows the reason why they decided to "skip" a few SNP's, but that's just how it is.

I already knew I was P312 though (from a previous test with another company), so I transferred my Geno 2.0 results to FTDNA (you can do it for free, National Geographic and FTDNA are working together) and then tested for DF27.

My guess is that you are U106-, L21-, U152-, but most likely P312+ and possibly also DF27+.

[ebAmerican]

Because L238 and L165 have low diversity, I'm not sure about P312* or L11*, but I would expect these samples to have been picked up from Teutons and Cimbri migration south during the Germanic migrations and brought to Denmark as willing additions or slaves. This is the only way I can interpret the data. The Vikings, then spread L238 to the Isles. I have no doubt that P312 was in Germany, but my doubt is they were in Jutland and Scandinavia prior to 0AD.

[Degredado]

Based on Maciamo's recent map of R1b migrations, P312 is likely to have appeared somewhere north of the Alps. The bulk of its descendants then moved South (U152), West/Southwest (DF27) and West/Northwest (L21), but it's not so hard to conceive that a few (including P312*) went North instead. Then there probably was a huge boost of L21's during the VIking Age, which would explain the disparity in Scandinavia between L21 and U152/DF27/P312*. I don't see another explanation. Unless [insert Keanu Reeves picture] L21 was always quite big in Scandinavia and L21 Vikings provoked the world's biggest and fastest founder effect in the Celtic fringes of the British Isles.

[Mikewww]

It particularly doesn't make sense for any R1b-P312>U152 in Scandinavia to have come from the British Isles.

Not sure why you associate U152 with the British Isles;
L21 would be more fitting also for the Viking slave-trade;

I'm not trying to associate U152 with the British Isles. That's the point. This thread was recently initiated... my guess it was inspired by earlier thread still running where statements like this were made.

.... Before the Germanic migrations the P312 and all it's subclades were probably situated south of the Rhine and Britain. The modern distribution of P312 (Subclades) and L11* in Scandinavia is probably due to recent migration. So, the Germanic invaders Germanized the P312 people during the 4th and 5th century AD.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post413462

I'm just trying to dissect P312's subclades in Scandinavia and show, one by one, that the majority of their input into Scandinavia probably really wasn't really from the British Isles in the form of slave trade. I think it is pretty easy to look at U153 and DF27 and see there is no reason to think they couldn't have been in Scandinavia prior to the Viking timeframe.

As far as a couple of specific subclades. L165 is a subset of DF27 and much of the family history and folklore supports the Norse ancestry. L238 is quite small and has a heavy dose of Scandinavians despite the vast difference in consumer testing rates between the British Isles and Scandinavia.

The really the only true candidate left for a heavy inflow into Scandinavia during the Viking Age is L21. We can examine in that more closely but we have periods of heavy trade between Scotland and Western Norway in recent times as well as probably movements way before the Viking Age to consider as well.

[Mikewww]

... Then there probably was a huge boost of L21's during the VIking Age, which would explain the disparity in Scandinavia between L21 and U152/DF27/P312*. I don't see another explanation. Unless [insert Keanu Reeves picture] L21 was always quite big in Scandinavia and L21 Vikings provoked the world's biggest and fastest founder effect in the Celtic fringes of the British Isles.

Can someone give me the math to show how L21 would probably have grown to the frequencies it has in Scandinavia, but primarily based on Viking Age slave trade?

An easy other "explanation" for the presence of L21 in Scandinavia in significant is documented in reply #6 earlier in this thread.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post413526

Somehow L21 became very dominant in the British Isles. It's TMRCA and distribution make it a nice fit with Bell Beaker groups. This would have been during the onset of the Nordic Bronze Age. The Beaker people and later Celtics of the British Isles were obviously "island" sea people. Crossing the North Sea or coming up the English Channel to the Jutland would have been no big deal.


There are later candidates too if you don't like the Beaker expansions. We have the Atlantic Bronze Age peoples that must have had some P312 types. There are the Urnfielders that expanded right up to the neck of the Jutland Peninsula and into Northern Germany. We know there were R1b people in Urnfield. We also have Hallstatt Celts showing influence in the formation of Proto-Germanic groups. If Hallstatt hit the Isles to any extent, what would it have left there, other than L21?

I'll re-iterate. I think probably some L21, with a few misc. other things probably did come to Scandinavia and to other parts of Europe with the Viking slave trade. I just don't see how low status male slaves proliferated so well go in a relatively short period of time.

I see it every bit as likely to have been in Scandinavia in low amounts for a long time. An early start, especially as elite metallurgists, could go a long way towards building a population up.

[Mikewww]

I'm moving this posting over from the "Updated phylogenetic trees of R1b-L21, R1b-DF27 and R1b-U152" thread because it really belongs here. Hopefully, I'm not blowing up the forum rules.

Dr Harding gave a lecture in 2011 on his Old Norway Project in Gothenburg. If you are interested in Scandinavia I think you'll find this presentation worth your time.
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/-sczstev..._13Oct2011.pdf

They pulled slide 38 out showing the haplogroup breakdown saying it would come later. I don't know their project status but it should be published any time. The original presentation and internet pdf had this for slide 38 - a haplogroup map for seven locations in Scandinavia. This is the best Y DNA survey of Scandinavia that I know of.


The gray slices on each of the larger pies represents R1b. R1b is about a third to around 40% in almost every region surveyed. I created a legend to put the hg labels by the colors to make the chart easier to understand.

The breakdown of R1b is in the smaller pies. U106 is marked by the green slices in the small pies. U198 would also be included but it is so small in Scandinavia it hardly shows up.

Red, pink, yellow, dark blue, violet, light gray are all types of P312. In four of the seven region categories P312 looks as significant or more significant than U106! DF27 was not tested in this study but there is a good chance that a lot of the red P312 is DF27+,

A couple of specific items to consider:

> The darker blue is M222 whereas the rest of L21 is yellowish. In the north of Ireland and Scotland, M222 has very high frequencies. If all of the L21 (or most of it) was the result of Viking slave trade then we should see at least several times the amount of M222 in terms of its ratio of L21. There just isn't that much violet. Effectively, this rules out at least the northern parts of the Isles from being a hugh slave input into Scandinavia.

> The pink is U152, which is a component of P312. U152 shows up fairly strongly in Denmark(North Jutland) and Skaraborg. It looks like as high of frequencies as U153 has in England. How could it come in as minority from another population (i.e. England). U152 is not found to much extent in most of Ireland and Scotland so if these guys were slaves they weren't from Celtic areas.

> In light gray we also see SRY2627/M167 showing up in Skaraborg, Denmark and Blkinge/Kristianstad. SRY2627 does appear in England, but it is not very common there. SRY2627 is most often found along the Pyrenees and in Catalonia. I don't think we have much of a reason to think it came from Britain. SRY2627 is a subclade of DF27.

Don't forget that R1b-P312 shows up in Germany too, and even over in Poland. I don't think that U152 and DF27 are really much of a discussion anyway as British Isles sources, but I just carried that part of the post over too from the other thread.

[Degredado]

Mikewww, what you're saying makes sense. I just have a few reservations:

1) Archaeology and genetics point towards DF27 being most closely associated with the Bell Beakers, at least more so than the other P312 subclades;

2) While I agree that it might be somewhat unlikely for men holding slave status to leave that large of an offspring, we must consider a couple of things:

a) after some time, those slaves, coming from a culture that already had ties to the Anglo-Saxon culture, might have been assimilated in a fairly easy way into Scandinavian culture, especially with the spread of Christianity;

b) even if, let's say, "only" about 5.000 (just a round number for the sake of the argument, not based on anything concrete) overwhelmingly L21 male slaves were taken from the British Isles to Scandinavia, in a span of anywhere from 100-250 years, they could have left a significant amount of descendants after gaining the "trust" of the natives, especially if Scandinavia wasn't that densely populated.

Surely there was some L21 in Scandinavia since the Iron Age at least, but I still think that it was given a major boost by the slave trade. As you suggested, one scenario doesn't rule out the other at all. Obviously it's hard to pinpoint what would be the proportion of "old" and "new" L21 in Scandinavia, but my wild guess would be that, if not for the slave trade, L21 might account for, say, 10-15% of Scandinavian R1b (closer to U152, for instance) as in opposed to 25%.

[Fire Haired]

FireHaired, I've taken the Geno 2.0 test as well and my result was also R-P310.From what I've gathered, Geno 2.0 doesn't test for P312, but it tests for L21,U152, U106 and various SNP's under these. They also don't test for DF27(although they also test for a few SNP's under DF27). Nobody really knows thereason why they decided to "skip" a few SNP's, but that's just how itis.

I already knew I was P312 though (from a previous test with another company),so I transferred my Geno 2.0 results to FTDNA (you can do it for free, NationalGeographic and FTDNA are working together) and then tested for DF27.

My guess is that you are U106-, L21-, U152-, but most likely P312+ and possiblyalso DF27+.

Thanks for theinfo about the Genographic project I really doubted I was proto GermanicItalo Celtic R1b P310*. My last name is in the English language I havebeen able to trace my direct paternal ancestry in New York in at least the mid1700's so my Y DNA originally came from probably England, Scotland, or Wales.So I put my Dad’s haplotype into a bunch of predictors I thought if they toldme R1b L21 that meant probably Scotland or Wales if R1b S21 probably England orlowlands of Scotland. Most of them only told R1b or R1b M269 which I alreadyknew he had.

The one calledthe World haplogroup and Haplo – I subclade predictor. These are the results R1b-North/South2 =>31% R1b-S21-Scottish2=>21% R1b-S28 =>17% R1b-E.Europe =>11% R1b-S26 =>8% R1b-Irish/Continental =>4% R1b-S21-Scottish =>3% R1a-Norse =>3%. I looked up North/Southcluster and everything said it is R1b P312* so I guess maybe ur right. If it istrue Genographic project does not test for P312 but does test for L21, U152,U106. I guess the only possiblity is I have proto Italo Celtic P312 orCeltiberian Df27. It looks like it is probably P312 if the North/South R1b isP312. This does not help at all figuring out if my surname is from Scotland,England, or Wales.

I have anotherquestion my family has been trying to figure it out we thought DNA tests wouldhelp. There is some type of Dark skin thing that is in my Dad’s family. My Dadhis uncle, my Dad’s cousins literally have brown skin as dark or darker thanfor example Syrians. We know it is probably not from the Paternal line becausemy dad has at least R1b P310/L11* which is almost never found outside ofEurope. All the women they have married were either German, Norwiegan, English,and Scottish. My dads direct maternal line goes back to Norway and he has H64 Icould not find any info on it The Who am I test on national Genographic which Iguess is there form of a Aust Dna test. Was 40% meditreaen, 35% North Euro, 15%southwest asian, 5% native American, 3% Sub Sharan, 2% Oceania. From the areashis ancestry comes from North Euro is uselly around 50% and med is usellyaround 35%. The med in the Genographic project is most popular around the mideast and north Africa. But we have records and there was no inter marriage withanyone from those areas in the last 200 years. I still think It could beorignally from mid eastern north african inter marriage.

I doubt thosepercentages about sub sharen African, native american, and oceania are correctlike I said we have all marriage records of just about all of our ancestrygoing back 200 years. Even pictures as far back as the mid 1800’s they alllooked 100% European. A lot of my ancestors did have contact with NativeAmericans but I doubt that is the source it is to little. I live in a verydiverse area one of the most in the world I have seen half white half blackpeople they have a lot of african features but the skin is almost alwayswhiteish so I doubt that is the source. Non of my ancestors from what we knowwere evern in Austrilla or Papue New gunie area so I really doubt the Oceaniathing and since it is so little there is almost no way that is the source.

[urra]

It is easy to forget how sparsely populated Norway is, with clear distinctions. Theories coming from British isles and Germany never adds up with realities, stereotypes and expectations. While many have read fool proof theories about it being highly beneficial to import British farmers to Norway to muck around at the shore line against their will. Something that by itself is inherently laughable. Where I actually have ancestry from Fjords and Møre to argue Haralf Fairhair through Eric Bloodaxe and likely argue King Audbjörn as well.

Early boat builder culture was around 2800 BCE, and just happens to be that someone else in my ethnic group has done NGS test.
R-BY11863 at Yfull.
Allowing discussion if the sample found 400 to 50 BCE in Yorkshire ship wrecked there by the regular North Sea current.
"The main pattern to the flow of water in the North Sea is an anti-clockwise rotation along the edges."

Where I only have two L21 SNP's, same with the other guy. Where this indicates that A5846 or L21 is a 5000 year old Norse / Danish / Celtic.
The time range fits ideas about introduction of farming and wood working, and multi ethnic and culturally interaction with inter marrying of those that killed seals and stretched it out with bones and wood to make a canoe.

Point being that 12 generations on both sides of fishing and marine activity in North West Norway is more compatible with thousands of years of adaptation.
We sold ships, is another argument. Where lunatics and small segments of populations running off for an adventure and action is still common.
There is more data, and higher accuracy - more toxic to ideas about human decency on average. In line with feelings of familiarity, cultural and behavioral similarities in the larger Atlantic groups, where there is no one true answer for so many years and generations. Where three generations in Norway before going directly to the legal system without support and help, is in line with ideas about integration today.

[urra]

And then of course, I just happen to have V15a2, where V15 is thought to be one of the main mtDNA following R1b from Armenia or there about perhaps.
Where most realities, where most migrations involved many branches - it isn't compatible with most contemporary theories that come with flair of nationalism.
Perhaps reality is that Norse came with working legal practices compatible with, and showing the same basic features as all other "large cultural civilization expansions".

Very few from Bergen to Trondheim is likely wanting too much information, while being berated with ideas and theories from the rest of Europe with confirmation biases and expectations. All theories at some point need to include "Santa Clause" as Saami with Reindeer as food storage. Farming and living off the oceans with working trade, and practices to deal with conflicts that are guaranteed with different economic activities across these segments. Where neutrition starved Reindeer over the winter have a tendency to eat each others horns, so sea shells and other things may be attractive in trade, down to that level. Certainly, for most places in Norway, putting a slave on a reef to wish doesn't sound as workable as on principles wanting the best farmers to do farmers and keep the peace and food on the table. Where really good boats by itself, with able seamen that doesn't drown that easily is just as involved as giant farmers that can lift big stones and clear fields. Where my samples out dates definitions of Germanic people by 2500 years. Where unity ideals never really worked to maintain respect for activities, and different cultures that come with it for anyone that has ever tried it.

[urra]

"The first farming and thus the start of the Neolithic period, began ca. 4000 BC around the Oslofjord, with the technology coming from southern Scandinavia. The break-through occurred between 2900 and 2500 BC, when oats, barley, pigs, cattle, sheep and goats became common and spread as far north as Alta."

"The oldest human skeleton ever discovered in Norway was found in shallow water off Sogne in 1994 and has been carbon dated to 6,600 BC."

The most popular theories involving West Norse, are inherently the most toxic and unkind. Where perhaps S461/Z290 is the oldest marker for west and east norse.
Where there are multiple migrations, including those that moved further north than the expanse of Romans leading up to the Viking age.
As for cultural developments, raids started around 800 AD, with what was perhaps a 400 year old ideological conflict where Romans Banished Arianism, which is not compatible with universal and higher court practices that require separations of power, and comes with Trinitarianism which is also more compatible with ideas about body and mind and basic human anatomy and features seen across nature as perhaps mathematical, or logically metaphysically where personification and cultural developments around it may vary.

Age of my haplogroup, and that of L21 and A5846 matches these time periods, and something that would be expected for many from Sogn and Fjordane with Møre and Romsdal. Where perhaps others can be tied more closely to bronze age, where Romans are even more of a topic. Vikings forming the first major cities in Ireland isn't what is usually mentioned, it is that it must have been forced slavery and draconian, where those presenting the theories are slaves to their own debt and forced to work for a living as well. Where slave and employee are interchangeable with the exception of colonial times and flat out racism and inhuman treatment where farm animals would be expected to be treated better as their will doesn't need to be consistently broken. None of which either Vikings or Scandinavians are famous for.

[urra]

That is, I have two SNP's of L21, and nobody else in A5846 and BY11863 especially seem to have it, one that everyone in other sub clades of L21 do have.
Where this perhaps marks migration to British Isles and around Skagerrak especially as early splits, where it is reasonable that the majority of this mid latitude group would like the British Isles. But it also implies that is isn't as straight forward and Norse, Celtic or central European cultures or what not. Academics that aim to not be controversial and follow majority supported conventions and directions in their field may soon start to muddle lines and be less adamant.

These threads irks me, and the providing of insight has been a staple activity for well past a millennia, and are the most prominent through the dark ages from majority population roles and positions to "help" with a faster pace and sharing of views and sentiments.

[urra]

"Around 2800 BC, metal was introduced in Scandinavia in the Corded Ware Culture. In much of Scandinavia, a Boat Axe Culture became prominent, known from some 3,000 graves. The period 2500–500 BC also left many visible remains to modern times, most notably the many thousands rock carvings in western Sweden at Tanumshede and in Norway at Atla."

Archeology is a bit better than history written by some Roman guy, creating a definition of Germanic people to explain Europe.

[urra]

While back in early Viking age. Romans were exporting and banishing supporters of Arianisme left and right to spread their ideas elsewhere.
Athenaseus of Alexandria, it's chief librarian were exiled through his career by no less than five different Roman emperors over Trinitarianism vs Arianism.
And Scandinavia likely thought the lunatics sent where completely off their rockers and decided to respond with force.
Until eventually enough were convinced that absolute rule was the right thing, and usually being banished until the beginning of raiding activity.