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Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

We are talking about Late Antiquity, Yamnaya times were long time gone and populations underwent massive transformations from that time.

Your subclade literally has a TMRCA of 500 A.D, that's extremely massive cut for a subclade/lineage that u sport for uninterrupted survival.

As for your suggestion here you have your answer: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ge-come-from-video.37692/page-222#post-691178

It is not as simple as you make it. You bring only your viewpoint in consideration ignoring red flags. The reality is that this is an open-ended issue for archaeogenetics and linguistics.
 
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Iron Age Cinamak is not from the Yamnaya era, I am saying look at the Yamnaya linages there - all of them present in Albanians today. No disconnection in terms of Y linages like you see with northern Illyrian regions.

PH970/Z2705 is estimated to have formed at around 150CE. Yfull underestimates their data by at least 15/20%

See here: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-PH970/story
 
Does Matzinger say Messapian and Albanian are related? Yes. What do we find in southeastern Italy during Bronze and Iron Age? R-Z2103>CTS1450/CTS9219 and J-L283>Z638. Case closed.

Now claiming Messapians are Armenochori spawn that hopped on Cetina boats to land in Puglia is just plain stupid. They were Illyrians. Usually the scenarios that don't require such lively imagination are closer to the truth. For what's worth there's also R-Z2103>CTS1450/CTS9219 in Picene (sample PN176) before Hutsul Daco-Mysians start mentioning Brygi and imaginary Brnjica culture.
 
So, in the light of all the DNA data we have, these refugees most probably strengthened V13 - so the Thracian assumptions there probably stands. However, I think this is where you are mistaken assuming that these northern refugees brought Albanian with them. Most of these refugees came from urban Roman settlements: your answer to the "eastern latin" element too.
Albanian is an internally consistent language with its own sound laws and phonology. You cannot import a people into a population and then retroactively impose sound changes that have already finished in the past in the migrant language onto the local host populations language. This can get a bit more complicated so I understand how it can be easier to slip up or misconstrue things as possibilities when they are not.

I 100% agree with you that most probably most of the local Albanian lineages like J2b-l283 come from North Albanian regions mostly.

But the language of the people from those regions cannot have been proto-Albanian. This is more or less known now from countless different angles. The toponyms in those regions match a western dalmatian variety of latin that appears among latinised dalmatians in croatia, and even shares similarities with latinised messapics, while albanian latinity does not. So this points to the people in this region having a language substrate underneath latin that is different to albanian.

I am still not convinced Z2705 was present in Albania until the post roman period, and I believe for now it migrated together with Ev13.

If in the future it turns out that z2705 is indeed from Mat area somewhere then it would just mean that it was one of the latinised illyrian speakers in this region, and not a proto-Albanian speaker.

This is me in post #106 on the E-V13 Frequencies thread:

We know that proto-Albanian was not spoken around the mat/dibër/mirditë cluster from multiple lines of evidence, so proto-Albanian cannot have extended from Mirdita to Dardania until the migration from Dardania/Moesia came to Mirdita/Albania and proto-Albanians began to spread their linguistic influence among the latinised Illyrians they encountered there.

1. Pre-Roman toponymy in Albanian doesn't follow proto-Albanian phonetic laws

I.e. the form of "Durrës" (instead of Durrëq if it had been directly from Dyrrachium) shows that this toponym proto-Albanians didn't know this before the roman era of the balkans, meaning the proto-Albanians didn't know this,
Shkodër likewise shows that proto-Albanians didn't know this before the roman era of the balkans.

2. Early Post-Roman toponymy in Albanian doesn't follow proto-Albanian phonetic laws

Even the latin toponyms of the region of the mat/dibër/mirditë cluster do not match the phonetics of Latin of proto-Albanian, showing that the Illyrians that were latinised in these regions were speaking a language different to proto-Albanian.

Toponyms such as:

Volpul: a mountain in Berishë [from Latin. Vulpes],
Shkortull: a village in Fand valley [from Latin. Curtus, compare Romanian. Scurtul]
Groftat e Gojanit: Mirditë mountain pass [from Latin. Crupta]

In all these examples a Latin. /u/ yielded an /o/ which is:

Unalbanian phonetic development [compare Albanian. Furkë from latin. Furca, albanian. Luftë from latin. Lucta]

Or toponyms such as Pedhanë from Latin. Pedaneus which lack the typical Albanian fall of the intervocalic sound plosives that we see in the Albanian word Pyll from Latin. Padulem.

What this means is that proto-Albanians learnt the toponym Pedhane long after they learnt the word Pyll.

We have plenty more examples such as Αὐλών which became Vlorë in Albanian, but the ō in proto-Albanian should have become e if the proto-Albanians were already there since the pre-roman era.

This is clear in examples like Pemë (fruit) from Latin. pōma.

This means proto-Albanians learnt the toponym Aulon only after they had already loaned the word Pemë from Romans.
 
Iron Age Cinamak is not from the Yamnaya era, I am saying look at the Yamnaya linages there - all of them present in Albanians today. No disconnection in terms of Y linages Iron Age Cinamak is not from the Yamnaya era, I am saying look at the Yamnaya linages there - all of them present in Albanians today. No disconnection in terms of Y linages like you see with northern Illyrian regions.

PH970/Z2705 is estimated to have formed at around 150CE. Yfull underestimates their data by at least 15/20%

See here: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-PH970/story
Iron Age Cinamak cluster could potentially be a source of Illyrian paternal component in Albanian, but it cannot have been proto-Albanian speaking.

Albanian shares deep relationship with Baltic that is explained by a Proto-Albanian - Baltic symbiosis sometime in the past.

While there are feasible scenarios in which such a relationship could develop among proto-Albanian speakers if they descend from a daco-thracian group that had contacts with baltic speakers around the carpathians sometime in the MBA-EIA period , there are no feasible scenarios for how such features developed in Albanian if the descend from the yamnaya package that has been in the west balkans since the EBA. The relationship had to happen sometime after the steppe, so it cannot be explained away by claiming it is some old relationship before they migrated out of the steppe.

13.4.1.1 ‑teen Numerals

Albanian forms the teen numerals eleven to nineteen using a pattern of DIGIT-on-TEN, e.g. njëmbëdhjetë ‘eleven’ (cf. një ‘one’, mbi ‘on’, dhjetë ‘ten’), that seems to parallel Slavic (e.g. Ru. odínnadcat’ ‘eleven’ (cf. odín ‘one’, na ‘on’, désjat’ ‘ten’)) and part of Baltic, specifically Latvian (e.g. vienpadsmit ‘eleven’; Lithuanian aligns with Germanic here, using a formative based on *lei̯kʷ- ‘leave’, not a form of ‘ten’). However, there is one key difference between the Albanian and the Slavic/Latvian patterns. Albanian, along with Romanian, has a feminine form of ‘ten’, shown by the use of the feminine tri ‘three’ with dhjetë ten’ in the formation of ‘thirty’, tridhjetë, whereas Slavic has a masculine form, as in the Russian use of masculine dva ‘two’ in the formation of ‘twenty’, dvádcat’ (literally “two tens”); Romanian for ‘twenty’ is douăzeci ‘twenty’ (literally “two tens”), with feminine două, thus with feminine ‘ten’.

Following Reference Hamp and GvozdanovićHamp (1992), these facts can be interpreted for the Balkans as follows. The variety of IE destined to become Albanian (Hamp’s “Albanoid”) was a Northern IE language, grouped with or in contact with Germanic and Balto-Slavic. Within Baltic, Lithuanian absorbed the teen-numeral pattern of Germanic, whereas Latvian interacted with Slavic and Albanoid, an inner-Baltic difference that makes sense geographically. Albanoid, along with Latvian and Proto-Slavic, developed the DIGIT-on-TEN pattern, presumably an innovation in one language that spread by contact into the others, but its speakers changed this pattern as they moved south into the Balkans and came into contact with the variety of Latin that some of its speakers shifted to, yielding Romanian.

Albanian. djathë "cheese",
Old Prussian. dadan "milk"
Old Indic. dádhi- "sour milk"

Alb. lajthí "hazel, hazelnut"
Old Prussian. laxde "hazel"
Lithuanian. lazdà "stick"
Latv. lazda, lagzda, "hazel"

Proto-Albanian. *ligā, Albanian. lig "illness",
Lithuanian. ligà,
Latvian. liga id.

Alb. i ligë, i ligshtë ‘sick, weak’
Lithuanian. ligùistas "sickly";

Proto-Alb. *landā, Albanian. Gegh landë "construction lumber",
Lithuanian. lentà "wooden table".

"Although during the time of the first attestations of the Baltic and Albanian languages the Balts and Albanians already lived to the north and south of the Carpathians, there is reason to think that their earlier ancestors somehow controlled and occupied regions located accordingly in the north and south of the mountain chain.

This allows one to propose a more northern placement of the so-called Proto-Albanian complex until its displacement toward the Adriatic."

Specialist linguist of Baltic. Pietro U. Dinu
2014


The relationship of Illyrian to Albanian is like that of the Celtic language of Brittonic to English.

It represents the language spoken by the local indigenous people before the Germanic language of the Anglo-Saxons migrated to England.

In this comparison the Anglo-Saxons were the Daco-Thracian speaking proto-Albanians.
 
And when it comes to Latinized Balkan “Roman” commoners, groups like the Cincars, Megleno-Romanians, Aromanians, and Sarakatsani are all relatively rich in E-V13 rather than R-Z2705 or J-PH1751...
What these groups all have in common is that they descend from Roman Danubian and beyond urban centres. Look at those E-V13 clades and their super recent MRCA connections with non Balkaners. There's no room for that region to have birthed Albanian ethnogenesis. What we have from there are a bunch of E-V13 singletons & MENA rich Y DNA latinophones.

Meanwhile KK culture fits with distribution and geography: perfect isolated rural core region from Lezha, Malësia, Gegnia, Leknia and Dukagjin. That's the area where Paleo-Balkan rich samples like our Barç fella could have survived. Not in urbanized and latinized Moesia.

So we have a bunch of obvious Proto-Arbën Y-DNA bottlenecks (R-BY611, J-PH4679, R-Z29758 etc.) that fit every criteria for the survival of a Southern Illyrian population. Both Davranoglou and Gretzinger papers have shown that Albanians prefer a Southern Illyrian Bronze/Iron Age source in qpAdm while BGR IA fails tremendously.

Since percentages have been brought up: R-Z2103/J-L283/R-PF7562 combined are more common in Albanians than E-V13 in absolute majority of Albanian counties.
 
LMAO everyone has conceded the Barç sample is not modern. It has zero IBDs with moderns, your buddies on twitter and even your friend dapallapagou, this is in the paper(supplemental #8).
MCsLVAi.png


Every argument for a Illyrian origin relies on grand falsehoods and constant distortions.

Gretzinger

This paper has nothing to do with Albanians.

Davranoglou

Paper's conclusion are easily disprove using their own data. Their QPDAM methods are questionable, they dropped some of their right sources so models can pass, and created fictional profiles to represent a population that's not real so they could trace it to Illyrians through QPDAM(in a questionable model too), but Shtike has zero IBDs with Illyrians, so it's all smoke and mirrors.

The paper is not impartial at the slightest, paper has authors who have no qualification(inept), some are extremely militant and outright biased whose only purpose is to force a link with Illyrians. gjergj bojaxhi, no qualifications, and biased. alban lauka, no qualifications and biased. Davranoglou friends with alban, even has video with himself in Tropoja with a cameraman that's clearly alban (https://www.instagram.com/leonidasdav/reel/DNLMirGitTE/?hl=en)

A linguist was added that is very sympathetic to Illyrian hypothesis. The authors affiliations with rrenjet project and close personal relations all point to a of lack of integrity an objectivity. Ignoring Shtike's IBD data is not a "accident", Shtike shares the most IBD with future Albanian populations it should have been one of the main focuses of the study.
 
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Does Matzinger say Messapian and Albanian are related? Yes. What do we find in southeastern Italy during Bronze and Iron Age? R-Z2103>CTS1450/CTS9219 and J-L283>Z638. Case closed.

Now claiming Messapians are Armenochori spawn that hopped on Cetina boats to land in Puglia is just plain stupid. They were Illyrians. Usually the scenarios that don't require such lively imagination are closer to the truth. For what's worth there's also R-Z2103>CTS1450/CTS9219 in Picene (sample PN176) before Hutsul Daco-Mysians start mentioning Brygi and imaginary Brnjica culture.

If my memory recalls correctly Matzinger in no way has said Proto-Messapians hopped on Cetina then landed in Italy, that is just your fantasies, Brumology missinterpretation.

If he ever meant that he will create an arrow-dot/dot-stop in Dalmatia/Cetina and continue the arrow from there instead in migratory maps this is a high arch uninterrupted, curved array, meaning sea route migratory path to differentiate from straight arrow = land migration. Why would Proto-Messapians make a march through Dalmatia when from their position from Vlore to Straight of Otranto it is way less haha. Assuming Matzinger here is right, he could be, there was some sort of Matt-Painted Pottery Culture influences in Messapia. Who knows.

We do not fully understand this, but obviously he seems these languages either lived in vicinity between Greek-Phrygian and Daco-Thracian fully Satem, it is just his reasons unbeknown yet to us. He thinks Proto-Albanian evolved from these Bubanj-Hum III descendants maybe? Whose burials were urn burials. Let the man fully explain himself in the future.


messapi_albanians.jpg
 
Or here we go again, it's not "Brnjica" now it's "Matt Painted Pottery". Pots =/ different people in this case. There is also R-PF7562 and J-L283 down in Arta, Amvrakia, what gives?

Point is Messapians have identical autosomals and Y DNA to Illyrians and even someone as low tier "Albanologist" as Matzinger does not oppose the factual relationship btw Messapic and Albanian. This contradicts his other fringe theories. And it's painfully obvious how he adjusts his theories by each year reaching peak delusion as more data comes in. Messapians are the smoking gun, it is what it is.
 
Or here we go again, it's not "Brnjica" now it's "Matt Painted Pottery". Pots =/ different people in this case. There is also R-PF7562 and J-L283 down in Arta, Amvrakia, what gives?

No R-PF7563 in Dalmatia, none, despite 100 or so samples from bronze age through Roman. So what really gives, other than chronic dishonesty and gross distortions.
 
You are mixing your own desires with data.

Derite has made excellent point, Albanian came prepacked with Eastern Vulgar Latin and one of the lineages showing in Adriatic at the right time is E-V13, there is a lot of LBA diversity within S2979, heck, Labs have so much FGC11450, i suspect all Alboh S2979 lineages lived together and came together.

Now what happened in EBA, MBA i don't know, but it is apparent that Albanian likely evolved inland Balkans bordering East Balkan.
 
Albanian is an internally consistent language with its own sound laws and phonology. You cannot import a people into a population and then retroactively impose sound changes that have already finished in the past in the migrant language onto the local host populations language. This can get a bit more complicated so I understand how it can be easier to slip up or misconstrue things as possibilities when they are not.

I 100% agree with you that most probably most of the local Albanian lineages like J2b-l283 come from North Albanian regions mostly.

But the language of the people from those regions cannot have been proto-Albanian. This is more or less known now from countless different angles. The toponyms in those regions match a western dalmatian variety of latin that appears among latinised dalmatians in croatia, and even shares similarities with latinised messapics, while albanian latinity does not. So this points to the people in this region having a language substrate underneath latin that is different to albanian.

I am still not convinced Z2705 was present in Albania until the post roman period, and I believe for now it migrated together with Ev13.

If in the future it turns out that z2705 is indeed from Mat area somewhere then it would just mean that it was one of the latinised illyrian speakers in this region, and not a proto-Albanian speaker.

This is me in post #106 on the E-V13 Frequencies thread:
We are not talking about a mathematical formula here. Languages shift and evolve with time.

No serious linguist now days groups Albanian with the CW complex. Greek then Armenian are our closest living relatives linguistically speaking - so therefore that would mean direct Yamnaya descendants
 
We are not talking about a mathematical formula here. Languages shift and evolve with time.

No serious linguist now days groups Albanian with the CW complex. Greek then Armenian are our closest living relatives linguistically speaking - so therefore that would mean direct Yamnaya descendants
I'm in agreement that Albanian isn't a CW complex language, I don't think there is a strong case for that.

The Albanian language must descend from a yamnaya group that had a symbiosis with the baltic group, this doesn't mean being part of the same phylogenetic group i.e. being corded ware like Baltic, but intense neighbouring contacts. Really fundamental shared features and innovations like counting numbers, grammar, and lexicon.

The west balkan indoeuropean cultures that birthed the Illyrians are disqualified from such a relationship, and cannot be the source of Albanian.

Likewise Albanian has an extremely distant relationship with Italic, out of all Indo-European languages it is most distant to the Italic languages and second after that in relation is Celtic, also another westernmost IE language.

Albanian has a closer relationship to Indo-Iranian, an eastern IE language, than Italic and Celtic.

That fact also disqualifies the western balkan yamnaya package as the source of the Albanian language, given that they had intense contacts with both Italic and Celtic across multiple phases of their development, and that they are the westernmost Yamnaya languages.

The source of Albanian must instead be a yamnaya descended language nearer to the Carpathians and Central Balkans on the periphery. Here interestingly Riverman's hypothesis of Cotofeni has some potential overlaps, but that is still speculative and early to say either way.

What can be said for sure is that Cetina and western balkan yamnaya cannot be the source of Albanian.
 
Or here we go again, it's not "Brnjica" now it's "Matt Painted Pottery". Pots =/ different people in this case. There is also R-PF7562 and J-L283 down in Arta, Amvrakia, what gives?

Point is Messapians have identical autosomals and Y DNA to Illyrians and even someone as low tier "Albanologist" as Matzinger does not oppose the factual relationship btw Messapic and Albanian. This contradicts his other fringe theories. And it's painfully obvious how he adjusts his theories by each year reaching peak delusion as more data comes in. Messapians are the smoking gun, it is what it is.
AFAIK, there are no Messapian samples, instead, we got Daunian samples.
 
I'm in agreement that Albanian isn't a CW complex language, I don't think there is a strong case for that.

The Albanian language must descend from a yamnaya group that had a symbiosis with the baltic group, this doesn't mean being part of the same phylogenetic group i.e. being corded ware like Baltic, but intense neighbouring contacts. Really fundamental shared features and innovations like counting numbers, grammar, and lexicon.

The west balkan indoeuropean cultures that birthed the Illyrians are disqualified from such a relationship, and cannot be the source of Albanian.

Likewise Albanian has an extremely distant relationship with Italic, out of all Indo-European languages it is most distant to the Italic languages and second after that in relation is Celtic, also another westernmost IE language.

Albanian has a closer relationship to Indo-Iranian, an eastern IE language, than Italic and Celtic.

That fact also disqualifies the western balkan yamnaya package as the source of the Albanian language, given that they had intense contacts with both Italic and Celtic across multiple phases of their development, and that they are the westernmost Yamnaya languages.

The source of Albanian must instead be a yamnaya descended language nearer to the Carpathians and Central Balkans on the periphery. Here interestingly Riverman's hypothesis of Cotofeni has some potential overlaps, but that is still speculative and early to say either way.

What can be said for sure is that Cetina and western balkan yamnaya cannot be the source of Albanian.

The Albanian-Greek-Armenian relationship is a hypothesis, and it has been pushed recently without any solid proof, the general consensus is that the position of Albanian within IE tree is as of yet uncertain.

Hackenstein in his 2024 presentation, in one of his models he positions Albanian equally distant to Greek and the rest of Nuclear IE languages (Corded-Ware).


Once more to reinstate, we do not have any definite answer what is the position of Albanian in IE tree, just hypothesis.
 
There is no evidence stronger than paternal kinship:
Mycenaeans: Z2103/PF7563/L283
Illyrians: L283/Z2103/PF7563
Iapygians: L283/Z2103

All the above linages make that Albanian Yamnaya package too.
 
I'm in agreement that Albanian isn't a CW complex language, I don't think there is a strong case for that.

The Albanian language must descend from a yamnaya group that had a symbiosis with the baltic group, this doesn't mean being part of the same phylogenetic group i.e. being corded ware like Baltic, but intense neighbouring contacts. Really fundamental shared features and innovations like counting numbers, grammar, and lexicon.

The west balkan indoeuropean cultures that birthed the Illyrians are disqualified from such a relationship, and cannot be the source of Albanian.

Likewise Albanian has an extremely distant relationship with Italic, out of all Indo-European languages it is most distant to the Italic languages and second after that in relation is Celtic, also another westernmost IE language.

Albanian has a closer relationship to Indo-Iranian, an eastern IE language, than Italic and Celtic.

That fact also disqualifies the western balkan yamnaya package as the source of the Albanian language, given that they had intense contacts with both Italic and Celtic across multiple phases of their development, and that they are the westernmost Yamnaya languages.

The source of Albanian must instead be a yamnaya descended language nearer to the Carpathians and Central Balkans on the periphery. Here interestingly Riverman's hypothesis of Cotofeni has some potential overlaps, but that is still speculative and early to say either way.

What can be said for sure is that Cetina and western balkan yamnaya cannot be the source of Albanian.
You can’t disqualify Illyrians because of the DNA relationship.

Grouping them with westerners is just another myth. One only needs to look at their Y linages, especially southern Illyrians (Illyrii proprie dicti) - same linages that also Mycenaeans had.

How and why we share those features with Baltic linguistically, could be anything. That’s why ancient DNA is so popular today because linguistics proved to be inconclusive.

Cotofeni may be a source for V13, sure - and your answer for the shared Baltic/Slavic feature, add to that the eastern Latin as well 😁
 
You can’t disqualify Illyrians because of the DNA relationship.

Grouping them with westerners is just another myth. One only needs to look at their Y linages, especially southern Illyrians (Illyrii proprie dicti) - same linages that also Mycenaeans had.

That's a pretty weak line of reasoning on a couple of fronts.

How and why we share those features with Baltic linguistically, could be anything.

That’s why ancient DNA is so popular today because linguistics proved to be inconclusive.
Actually, exactly the region where IE came from was correctly pinpointed with linguistic analysis 160 years ago.

Theodor Benfey in 1868 argued exactly for the steppe region between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea as the IE homeland based on linguistic analysis of shared vocabulary for animal species, plant species, and geography, that all matched the steppe.

Looking back 160 years ago we can see that he was exactly right, there was nothing inconclusive about it.

The fact that some linguists and schools of thought had different arguments, either due to ideological/nationalistic motivations or sheer mediocrity/incompetence doesn't make it "inconclusive" as a science, since that exists and will always exist, in DNA too.

Many other linguists over the years argued exactly the same region as him, Marija Gimbutas being another famous example in 1956.

The case is identical with Albanian, in 1878 the Romanian linguist August Bogdan Hasdeu argued that the Albanian language descended from a branch of Dacian that survived south of the Danube.

He based this on linguistic fact, namely that Albanian and Romanian have a shared non-latin vocabulary, mainly related to pastoral/transhumance terms. (Of course the lexicon in Albanian pertaining to transhumance shepherding is the most pure Albanian, inherited from the original Yamanaya days and not loaned from other language groups, so it is most likely also the core group least likely to be mixed also genetically, so this again has great implications against the western balkan yamnaya as source of Albanian language.)

Often referred to as a substrate, today some prefer to call them loans from proto-Albanians rather than a substrate language of Romanians, but whichever position you hold, it necessitates proto-Albanians either being neighbours in intense contacts with Romanians, or the pre-Latinised core of Romanians speaking a proto-albanian dialect.

Why the relation of Albanian to Romanian disqualifies the west balkan yamnaya groups from being the source of the Albanian language is not just the "Eastern Latin" that you refer to, but also the non-Latin Albanian component in Romanian. It requires proto-Albanians in the areas of the Romanian ethnogenesis.

Even if there wasn't an Albanian substrate component, and it was just the Eastern Latin, it still could not be explained by illyrian speakers accepting eastern latin speaking EV13 migrants, that scenario you propose makes no sense linguistically. Albanian is internally consistent, and the soundlaws and different chronologies that we can observe in Albanian layers of vocabulary show us that the same sound laws that operated on the Eastern Latin layer of vocabulary also affected the inherited lexicon from PIE. Therefore we know that these Eastern Latin speakers must have been the proto-Albanians that also got their language from PIE.

Long story short, it wasnt Illyrians in Mat that are the source of proto-Albanian😁

Likewise the shtokavian dialects are less albanoid lexically and grammatically than bulgaro-Macedonian, which points to west balkan being a non Albanoid language for slavs to interact with. All these things have been mentioned in this thread countless times.

So the problem is that there is nothing inconclusive about linguistics, and the linguistic facts against west balkan being the theatre of proto-Albanian hold strong.

It's been known since 1878 that Albanian linguistically cannot be from the western balkans, and countless other linguists since then like weigand, jokl, bonfante, russu, georgiev, rusakov, matzinger, have also added to the proofs of this.

There is nothing inconclusive about all Albanian toponyms entering the Albanian lexicon aftet the roman invasion of the balkans, the phonological mismatch between Albanian and Illyrian toponyms, the Albanian-Romanian symbiosis, the Albanian-Baltic symbiosis, and countless other linguistic facts that disqualify Glasinac-Mati or any other western balkan yamnaya group being the source of Albanian, they are all settled.
 
R-Z2103/J-L283/R-PF7562 combined are more common in Albanians than E-V13 in absolute majority of Albanian counties.
That's like 3 midgets getting together and going up to Lebron James boasting that they're taller than him if they stand on each other's shoulders.

You make my case for me when you need to combine multiple unrelated haplogroups that had different histories to try and equal the demographic majority that E-V13 has among Albanians.

Especially when one of the haplogroups in your midget tower is R1b-Z2103, which in truth is only R1b-Z2705, a 1800year old singleton branch of ~6300 year old R1b branch, meaning zero diversity beyond the post-roman era back to Yamaya.

Doubly so when considering that according to comments from years by Rrenjet admins in media and online, Albanians descend from two different clusters, which they separate as "Dardania/Moesia" cluster, comprised of E-V13 and R1b-Z2705 vs "mat/diber cluster" comprised of J2b-l283 +r1b-pf7563. This means your midget tower just lost a midget.

So unless Rrenjet have been catastrophically wrong and persistently coupling r1b-z2705 with e-v13 for years, there is no reason to assume it is part of the western balkan yamnaya package, but instead more probably descends from the central balkan or carpathian yamnaya package.

Maybe it will be easier to understand the situation if we stop referring to Z2705 as R1b-Z2705 and maybe instead rebrand it as E-V13>Z2705.

Remember, this is from rrenjet's page on Albanian R1b:

R-BY611​

Të gjitha rezultatet shqiptare nën R-BY611 i takojnë nëndegës ~1500 vjeçare R-BY611>Y23373>Z2705. Degëzimet e tjera kanë rezultate nga Italia, Spanja, Amerika, Gjermania/Polonia dhe Hungaria. Përveç këtyre, ka edhe rezultate që nëse përmirësojnë rezolucionin e testimit, mund të formojnë nëndegë të reja nën BY611. Këto vijnë nga Italia veri-lindore, Kroacia dhe Vojvodina. Shpërndarja dhe larmia e gjithë këtyre rezultateve sugjeron një përhapje nga pellgu Panonik mes Alpeve të Europës dhe Karpateve, me gjasë nga pjesa perëndimore e kësaj hapësire. Për të përcaktuar më me saktësi kohën e përhapjes, duhet të kemi edhe disa teste me rezolucion të lartë, por periudha më e mundshme mbetet para 2600-3300 vitesh.

Yeah that's right, it wasn't even in Illyria with J2b-L283, so it cannot have been speaking the same.language as them.

Dont get me started on more fine grained analysis like considering that J2b-l283 percentages in Tosks are half that of Slavic percentages.
 
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