The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

[Lukas]

^^ Change my mind

 

[1337_]

Northern Macedonia was never Ancient Macedonia except for when they conquered it AFAIK. It became Roman Dardania and Roman Macedonia during Roman period. Peonians were most likely of Illyrian stock given their location or Thrako-Illyrian.

 

[D.L.M]

That sample is Hellenistic era and Mycenaean/Empuries-like, from the Biomuse project PCA. Most of those are similar, post-Mycenean ancient Greeks plotting with or near Mycenaeans. But because the samples are so few, we don’t know where variations exist, or a fuller haplogroup picture. What happened between North Macedonia and Thessaloniki area, a big change in ancestry, or blending?

All I am saying is that those samples are not old Macedonians. Whenever the ancient Ancient Macedonians were similar to those samples I don't know. I would never guess it. But you never know.

They seem to plot with Northern Italians in G25.

 

[eupator]

^^ Change my mind

Ι was about to say ... the Urartians especially were a surprise.

 

[D.L.M]

G25 coordinates:
https://pastebin.com/gdesSy37
With names.

---
https://gist.github.com/teepean/122d16ebe903d5ab1b22624d2946d7b9
https://gist.github.com/teepean/459f9fabb71d8d84e2fea6963d006fea

 

[D.L.M]

IA Thracians very close to Old Greeks.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #95FF00, align: right"]0.02919304[/TD]
[TD]Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A9FF00, align: right"]0.03321198[/TD]
[TD]HUN_MA_Szolad_o1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BFFF00, align: right"]0.03739661[/TD]
[TD]BGR_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFFF00, align: right"]0.04064316[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D1FF00, align: right"]0.04098704[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_LBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2FF00, align: right"]0.04747289[/TD]
[TD]DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F6FF00, align: right"]0.04823040[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FBFF00, align: right"]0.04926681[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FDFF00, align: right"]0.04969857[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_MBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FEFF00, align: right"]0.04984308[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Varna_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFA00, align: right"]0.05091011[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Middle_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF900, align: right"]0.05110997[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_MA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF800, align: right"]0.05133185[/TD]
[TD]HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF600, align: right"]0.05171843[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF600, align: right"]0.05175676[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF300, align: right"]0.05241295[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF200, align: right"]0.05252493[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Krepost_N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF100, align: right"]0.05271176[/TD]
[TD]MDA_Trypillia_Late[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEF00, align: right"]0.05319362[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEE00, align: right"]0.05342384[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE500, align: right"]0.05512894[/TD]
[TD]BGR_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE200, align: right"]0.05561674[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE000, align: right"]0.05606614[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Lassithi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDF00, align: right"]0.05628714[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Late_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDD00, align: right"]0.05672511[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Chiusi_EMA

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20185[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ABFF00, align: right"]0.03360491[/TD]
[TD]BGR_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B6FF00, align: right"]0.03574293[/TD]
[TD]HUN_MA_Szolad_o1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C0FF00, align: right"]0.03767019[/TD]
[TD]Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C8FF00, align: right"]0.03913558[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D3FF00, align: right"]0.04140636[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_LBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D6FF00, align: right"]0.04195656[/TD]
[TD]MDA_Trypillia_Late[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DFFF00, align: right"]0.04374654[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Varna_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E7FF00, align: right"]0.04532439[/TD]
[TD]HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EAFF00, align: right"]0.04581081[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECFF00, align: right"]0.04624949[/TD]
[TD]DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EEFF00, align: right"]0.04668514[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_MBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EFFF00, align: right"]0.04684505[/TD]
[TD]HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1FF00, align: right"]0.04733391[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F5FF00, align: right"]0.04808000[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FAFF00, align: right"]0.04893819[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FBFF00, align: right"]0.04930457[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Late_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFB00, align: right"]0.05074768[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Krepost_N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF900, align: right"]0.05126565[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF700, align: right"]0.05163663[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Middle_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEF00, align: right"]0.05313661[/TD]
[TD]HRV_Pop_CA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEC00, align: right"]0.05363485[/TD]
[TD]HUN_BA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEA00, align: right"]0.05418317[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_MA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE900, align: right"]0.05432798[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE700, align: right"]0.05478901[/TD]
[TD]BGR_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE400, align: right"]0.05522570[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20183[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B3FF00, align: right"]0.03507599[/TD]
[TD]HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BAFF00, align: right"]0.03648193[/TD]
[TD]HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BAFF00, align: right"]0.03649306[/TD]
[TD]BGR_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BDFF00, align: right"]0.03714837[/TD]
[TD]MDA_Trypillia_Late[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D3FF00, align: right"]0.04128025[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D3FF00, align: right"]0.04137300[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DEFF00, align: right"]0.04359175[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6FF00, align: right"]0.04503083[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]0.04550480[/TD]
[TD]HRV_Pop_CA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E9FF00, align: right"]0.04567942[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Daunian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F5FF00, align: right"]0.04797340[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FAFF00, align: right"]0.04893808[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFD00, align: right"]0.05040804[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFA00, align: right"]0.05106324[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF800, align: right"]0.05132098[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF700, align: right"]0.05160977[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Laconia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF600, align: right"]0.05172526[/TD]
[TD]Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF600, align: right"]0.05174065[/TD]
[TD]HUN_MA_Szolad_o1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF300, align: right"]0.05229898[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Varna_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF300, align: right"]0.05237747[/TD]
[TD]DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF200, align: right"]0.05258223[/TD]
[TD]HUN_BA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFED00, align: right"]0.05361955[/TD]
[TD]ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEC00, align: right"]0.05381868[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]0.05400970[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE700, align: right"]0.05478629[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20181[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A1FF00, align: right"]0.03155147[/TD]
[TD]HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C1FF00, align: right"]0.03778236[/TD]
[TD]BGR_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CEFF00, align: right"]0.04047889[/TD]
[TD]HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E5FF00, align: right"]0.04486662[/TD]
[TD]MDA_Trypillia_Late[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6FF00, align: right"]0.04511422[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EDFF00, align: right"]0.04640284[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EFFF00, align: right"]0.04691150[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F6FF00, align: right"]0.04824241[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FDFF00, align: right"]0.04953981[/TD]
[TD]HRV_Pop_CA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF200, align: right"]0.05262849[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFED00, align: right"]0.05351423[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]0.05396685[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE800, align: right"]0.05452510[/TD]
[TD]ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE400, align: right"]0.05538621[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE300, align: right"]0.05544245[/TD]
[TD]Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE100, align: right"]0.05590677[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE000, align: right"]0.05609569[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDE00, align: right"]0.05645051[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Daunian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDC00, align: right"]0.05694337[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDA00, align: right"]0.05728048[/TD]
[TD]HUN_BA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD900, align: right"]0.05750660[/TD]
[TD]HUN_MA_Szolad_o1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD900, align: right"]0.05754695[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Laconia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD800, align: right"]0.05765370[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Etruscan_Chiusi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD500, align: right"]0.05818917[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD500, align: right"]0.05828980[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20180[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A0FF00, align: right"]0.03141407[/TD]
[TD]Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A6FF00, align: right"]0.03261722[/TD]
[TD]HUN_MA_Szolad_o1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B5FF00, align: right"]0.03558394[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_LBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCFF00, align: right"]0.04000906[/TD]
[TD]BGR_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6FF00, align: right"]0.04504348[/TD]
[TD]DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E9FF00, align: right"]0.04573734[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Middle_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECFF00, align: right"]0.04626449[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2FF00, align: right"]0.04749242[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_MA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8FF00, align: right"]0.04869590[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_MBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: right"]0.04997527[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFB00, align: right"]0.05087199[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Varna_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF800, align: right"]0.05137518[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF600, align: right"]0.05176423[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF400, align: right"]0.05217211[/TD]
[TD]BGR_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF000, align: right"]0.05297395[/TD]
[TD]MDA_Trypillia_Late[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFED00, align: right"]0.05346343[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFED00, align: right"]0.05351074[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFED00, align: right"]0.05360915[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE500, align: right"]0.05503839[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE200, align: right"]0.05560631[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Late_C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE100, align: right"]0.05595434[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_Roman_Imperial[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE000, align: right"]0.05615882[/TD]
[TD]HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDB00, align: right"]0.05702864[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD800, align: right"]0.05765723[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD600, align: right"]0.05806300[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[enter_tain]

1 E-V13 in an Ancient Macedonian site. Every single Thracian or Thracian-related sites are bearing E-V13, that's a no-brainer. Riverman's systematic approach and theory needs recognition.

As for entertain, his E-V13 bias and hatred screams from his screen lmao. It's out of control.




The Enchelei cremated their deaths on a pyre on a low-mound/tumuli like the Channeled-Ware, i doubt those samples are Enchelei. They must be some Matt-Painted Pottery descendands.

There is no "EV-13" hatred, just using my brain. EV-13 showed up in Croatian Illyrian BC and Croatian Illyrian AD. It just wasn't a major lineage until recently.

You desperately want "EV-13 bearers" to be some great, ancient civilization when the data is showing the opposite. Even in Greece it was in low % until recently. There are plenty of minor lineages in the Balkans: J1, J2a, T, G, etc... who could at any one point blow up due to founder effects. J2B2 is clearly a founder effect as well. It just happened earlier than EV-13.

It's not matter of which or whom, it's a matter of when. The same thing that happened to J2B2, R1b-L51, etc... happened to EV-13, just at a later date. Not when you want it to. That's not how history works.

 

[Valerius]

That old BGR_IA sample was based on 1 or 2 samples? If that is the case, it turned out to be representative for the Iron age population.

 

[enter_tain]

There was no one “Greek” language during Alexander’s reign. Koine hadn’t developed yet, we were still in the era of Attic/Ionian, Doric, Aeolian etc. Pittacus was an aeolian speaker and according to Plato, gave Prodicus (Attic speaker) a hard time with his dialect to the point of calling Pittacus a barbarian. I don’t hear anyone doubting that Aeolians were Greek speakers. The same happens today. I am a native Greek speaker, exposed to northern modern Greek dialects (both my maternal grandparents spoke one) and yet I do not fully understand Kozanitika (a divergent nothern idiom). I need them to speak slowly and I will still have unknown vocabulary. That doesn’t mean they aren’t speaking Greek.

If I'm not mistaken, Macedonian was most closely compared with Dorian, and even then Tsakonian today in Sparta is not mutually intelligible with Koine.

 

[enter_tain]

Northern Macedonia was never Ancient Macedonia except for when they conquered it AFAIK. It became Roman Dardania and Roman Macedonia during Roman period. Peonians were most likely of Illyrian stock given their location or Thrako-Illyrian.

I think you need some geography lessons pal. The southern parts of Macedonia were clearly ancient Macedonian, and Paeonians don't seem any different genetically.

 

[D.L.M]

The IA Albanian samples in G25 are like Northern Italians not like Tuscans.

 

[Kuivamaa]

If I'm not mistaken, Macedonian was most closely compared with Dorian, and even then Tsakonian today in Sparta is not mutually intelligible with Koine.

I think the majority of scholars consider it part of the Doric group. As for Tsakonian, it isn’t truly mutually Intelligible with anything else. At least not from the non tsakonian point of view, but lest we forget, it isn’t ancient Doric but an evolution of it. The dialect isn’t something mystifying, I can perhaps understand 50% of the texts I find online as an SMG speaker, but I guess listening comprehension would be much harder.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

I would like to apologize to everyone for the fact that I introduced political ideology to this forum. Forums of this type cannot be contaminated by politics, I am ashamed of what I did and I promise I will never repeat such an act again.

Now, back to the topic of this forum: the papers that came out yesterday "The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and Europe", according to the authors, the Proto-Indo-Anatolians are still a ghost population.
For that reason, starting from the non-EHG ancestry of the Yamanya (which after all constitutes approximately 50% of their genome) I tried to create, very rudimentary, the ancestry graph of the referred ghost population (Proto-Indo-Anatolians).
Do you agree?
View attachment 13529

 

[enter_tain]

What bothers me the most is that after this results I'm afraid that the DNA analysis of the tomb of Vergina (Philip II & co) will be postponed for a long time. Really a mised opportunity to know more about a possible importan figure of antiquitie.

It's sad because Philip built the first great European Empire. Look at those Macedonians. Literally fall on the Illyrian cluster.

I'm not really trying to make some nationalist point here, because ancient Macedonians are a dead people. They in fact have no direct descendants. I just don't like this deference to everything in southern Balkans is Greek without question/without exception, while the meaning of the word "Greek" itself has changed countless times.

Let's keep some nuance here.

 

[bigsnake49]

There are two main sets. One from northern....North Macedonia (mouthful), and one from southern/east of Ohrid.

The east of Ohrid area is clearly ancient Macedonian territory and are pretty much identical to southern Illyrians.

They are still not close to the three Macedonian cities/towns. The Macedonians were not a large tribe. Through alliances with neighboring tribes, conquests and intermarriage they expanded their territory.

 

[bigsnake49]

This is your personal interpretation. The historical fact is another and Demosthenes said it clearly:
"...οὐ μόνον οὐχ Ἕλληνος ὄντος οὐδὲ προσήκοντος οὐδὲν τοῖς Ἕλλησιν, ἀλλ᾽ οὐδὲ βαρβάρου ἐντεῦθεν ὅθεν καλὸν εἰπεῖν, ἀλλ᾽ ὀλέθρου Μακεδόνος, ὅθεν οὐδ᾽ ἀνδράποδον σπουδαῖον οὐδὲν ἦν πρότερον πρίασθαι."
"...he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."
Demosthenes-Third Philippic 31

Have you seen what far right Republicans say about the Democrats? Or William Jennigs Bryant say about his political opponents? Orators take a lot of liberties with the truth.

My grandfather could not understand a Cretan peasant from Sfakia, yet both of them spoke dialects of Greek. That's what happens when people are isolated from each other for long periods of time.

 

[Johane Derite]

Even the Thracians that lived there were probably more like BGR_IA than Tuscans. Greek Macedonians form a cline with Peloponnesians and the rest of Mainlanders.
The Slavic YDNA is higher there than in most other parts of Greece and also the historical account tells us that Macedonia was more Slavized than Peloponnese.

Ancient Macedonians and probably the Thracians were similar to Ancient Peloponnesians.

If Thracians were also a yamnaya derived (some argued them to be catacomb descended) language group its possible they are also directly part of the Balkan IE group.

Dardanian could have been part of an earlier branch with the the Daco-Thracian and Messapic (compare Albanian. Mëz, Thracian. Mezenai, Messapic. Menzana, Thracian. Dardapara, etc.)

 

[torzio]

Northern Macedonia was never Ancient Macedonia except for when they conquered it AFAIK. It became Roman Dardania and Roman Macedonia during Roman period. Peonians were most likely of Illyrian stock given their location or Thrako-Illyrian.

Paeonians where of thracian origin speaking an ancient Greek Dialect............they where northern neighbours of the Macedonians and usually vassals of Macedonians..........they where south of the Dardanians who ere their "first cousins " , only the language was different

The Katicic claim that they where Illyrian is a farce and the theory was used to confirm and establish a Yugoslavia and avoid any Greek or Bulgarian ( thracian ) issues

 

[Archetype0ne]

Not sure. I was really convinced the Macedonians would be East Med like, but it seems at least one of the clusters is Illyrian shifted.
Distance to: MKD_Anc:I10384 (Plaosnik)
0.02929251 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.02966225 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup
0.02979848 HRV_EIA
0.03028161 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean
0.03135410 HRV_MBA
0.03256036 HUN_LBA_EIA
0.03365859 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.03414459 HRV_IA
0.03500342 HRV_Pop_CA
0.03539854 HUN_La_Tene
0.03651653 ITA_Rome_MA
0.03660616 ITA_Etruscan
0.03672188 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1
0.03807512 CZE_LBA_Knoviz_o3
0.03893918 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2
0.03912616 HUN_EIA
0.04001106 HRV_LIA_La_Tene
0.04057601 HUN_Avar_Late_South_Transdanubia
0.04122927 HRV_EBA
0.04151502 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.04170639 Bell_Beaker_ITA
0.04275350 HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast
0.04308453 SVN_EIA
0.04356548 ITA_Daunian
0.04458707 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA


Distance to: MKD_Anc:I10381
0.03839258 HRV_Pop_CA
0.03879995 ITA_Daunian
0.03910960 HUN_EIA
0.03935094 HRV_IA
0.04035885 ITA_Etruscan
0.04049919 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup
0.04139098 ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA
0.04276713 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2
0.04350852 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean
0.04421750 HUN_LBA_EIA
0.04426863 ITA_Rome_MA
0.04428579 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.04461764 ITA_Etruscan_Tarquinia
0.04461826 HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast
0.04467120 Bell_Beaker_ITA
0.04475780 HRV_EIA
0.04488080 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.04569188 MDA_Trypillia_Late
0.04585042 ITA_Etruscan_Vetulonia
0.04600907 ITA_Etruscan_Casenovole
0.04628241 BGR_EBA
0.04729424 ITA_Chiusi_EMA
0.04766345 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.04871249 HRV_MBA
0.04957076 HUN_MA_Szolad_o1


Distance to: MKD_Anc:I8112
0.03293276 HRV_EIA
0.03308349 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup
0.03410440 HRV_MBA
0.03614885 HRV_LIA_La_Tene
0.03901582 HRV_Pop_CA
0.04064844 SVN_MBA
0.04071170 HRV_EBA
0.04104504 HUN_La_Tene
0.04123610 ITA_Rome_MA
0.04187609 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean
0.04244073 CZE_LBA_Knoviz_o3
0.04330459 HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast
0.04353389 Bell_Beaker_ITA
0.04399170 HUN_LBA_EIA
0.04474989 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.04481117 ITA_Etruscan
0.04489164 ITA_Broion_BA
0.04512332 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.04536297 HRV_IA
0.04540018 SVN_EIA
0.04551299 UKR_Cimmerian_o
0.04573656 HUN_Avar_Late_South_Transdanubia
0.04584424 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
0.04595767 Scythian_MDA
0.04597340 ITA_Daunian


Meanwhile, the East Med cluster are outliers:

 

[1337_]

I think you need some geography lessons pal. The southern parts of Macedonia were clearly ancient Macedonian, and Paeonians don't seem any different genetically.

The southern parts had some Greek population (so did Albania historically) . Thanks for telling me something I already knew. Some southern parts having a Greek population doesn't make Northern Macedonia = Ancient-Macedonian, mate.

The Ancient Macedonian state never began there, except for some southern parts.